Ryan Daly and Chris Franklin return to discuss BATMAN #410, which sees the Dark Knight and his new partner Jason Todd go up against Two-Face. Then DETECTIVE COMICS #577, the third chapter of "Batman Year Two". Also, because this episode was recorded a long time ago, the boys make numerous references to the detective's "bat-a-wang".
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Music from the Batman and Batman Returns original motion picture soundtracks by Danny Elfman. Additional music: “Two of Us" by The Beatles; "(Don't Fear) The Reaper" by Blue Oyster Cult; "Bad Company" by Bad Company.
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The only thing about Batman teaming up with Joe Chill and using a gun is… everything.
Chill and Leslie Thomkins should never have appeared beyond their first appearances. Heck, much as I enjoyed the Golden Age stuff with Chill’s mother and Lee Moxon, the thug who killed the Wayne’s should never even have been named, he should have never escaped and become The Man Batman Never Caught, ensuring his stupid crusade never ended.
As for the other story, it’s typically pedestrian Collins stuff. I can’t remember, was this the first time Jason II’s father received a first name? I always thought Willard was a weird choice (maybe Collins was into rats) but looking again, that’s WiLLard ToDD – two Ls, two Ds and a double V at the start, kinda sorta – perfect for a Two Face lackey. I’m probably overthinking.
Damn, I’ve just spent several minutes typing this while listening and then you say you’re deferring the feedback to make the length manageable? I’d rather you dropped a book!
We’re going to do a feedback responder every fifth or sixth episode, so you will be able to hear your wonderful words read back to you by us in the future.
But asking us to drop a book in favor of feedback… You want us to go even slower with our coverage? You want us to spend MORE TIME on these shitty, shitty comics?!! What the hell is wrong with you? I thought we were friends!
For the record, I think it’s “Willis” Todd, so no rat connection, unfortunately. Otherwise we could head-canon Jason’s dad into some kind of connection to an upcoming Grant/Wagner/Breyfogle creation!
The feedback excuse is a lie. Turns out feedback actually expires. Who knew? We had to throw it all out. 😉
Chris
Oh, Willis, sorry. I still want to know what Peter David has against the name ‘Edna’.
Guys, come on. Todd Bridges player Willis Jackson on Diff’rent Strokes. Name
Mystery solved!
What’choo talkin’ about DAG?
And I didn’t have to beat the crap out of someone to show what a great detective I am, CFranks!
How about just doing feedback? Ditch the comics altogether.
So, I’m a bit of a Todd McFarlane apologist, so… yeah I’m about to do that a bit here. You guys are absolutely right that his art is striking and has energy, but depending on how exaggerated the world he’s playing in it doesn’t always graft on well. This is part of the admiration I have for Spawn. I honestly think it’s a pretty decent book (or at least was back when I read the thing over 25 years ago), but the genius of it is Todd’s self awareness. I think possibly more than any other “hot artist” of his generation, Todd had a very good understanding of his own strengths and weaknesses. And I don’t just mean in the Liefeld way of avoiding drawing feet.
So when it came time to create his own hero and story from scratch he made narrative choices that would allow for his artistic strengths to shine. So take the cape. Spawn’s cape is easily as absurd as Batman’s is in Year Two. But, it’s a supernaturally powered costume, so it doesn’t have to make physical sense. Todd’s faces can often be cartoonish. So the hero has a completely face obscuring mask and the major humanoid characters (Tony Twist, the Clown, Jason Wynn) are designed to lean into a more cartoonish style. His creatures are so bizarrely proportioned that they shouldn’t even be able to stand up. Make them demons from hell for whom the normal rules don’t apply. I really think Todd put a lot of thought into ensuring that he made a character that would allow him to shine at what he did well, and it takes a pretty high degree of self awareness to do that as cleanly as he did. Of course, he proved himself to be something of an anal polyp in his personal dealings, but that’s another conversation.
Additionally, and you should have seen this coming, for an interesting take on the Joe Chill character I’d recommend the Gotham episode “This Ball of Mud and Meanness” from season 2. In that episode a young Bruce tracks down the man who was hired to kill his parents (don’t worry about the mystery of who paid him, the show seemed to realize that nobody really cared and cleared that off the boards separate from this episode). Now here it’s Matches Malone as opposed to Joe Chill, but that’s just a naming formality. Bruce goes to his apartment under the guise of wishing to hire him and with full intent to murder him. He expects to find a monster, and Malone even tries to present himself as one. But Bruce sees through that and is confronted with just a man. A sad man who probably wishes he’d been killed years ago. And the removal of the mysticism of what Bruce had built in his head, leaving him with just another flawed human in a flawed city, is really well delivered and central to the growth of his moral compass in the show.
Gotham ruled… well except season 5… *grumble grumble*
Can I call you “Conan the Contrarian”?
I’ll take that tile with Pride. And then crush my enemies and see them driven before me.
Well, Ace the bat-hound beat me to the Todd Willis revelation, so I have nothing constructive to add. My complaints regarding Year 2 are still valid, and are probably still on the feedback page for that episode. As far as the Two-Face story, it reads like a really average 70s TV show. Both of the books reviewed this time suffer from their respective authors forcing plot elements into their plots. If Collins insisted that there be a personal connection between Two Face and Jason Todd (which is really corny), he could have used that as a chance for Batman to instruct Jason in how to be a detective relying on intelligence, not a revenge-seeker led by emotions. Instead, he aims for melodrama. I cannot defend Dave Cockrum’s efforts in this book. Perhaps it was a rush job. I don’t think I’ll ever defend DeCarlo’s inking. I have never enjoyed any page he worked on. Some of the panels you include on the supplemental page look like he was trying to emulate Jack Kirby inker Mike Royer, but the lack of energy and backgrounds in the panels don’t earn a Kirby shine.
Barr’s story feels like he’s trying to make a jigsaw puzzle using his favorite pieces from ten different puzzle boxes. Plus some Lego pieces he insists belong in the jigsaw. So many elements have to crammed in that any development is sacrificed, like the Bruce and Rachel story. “Hi!” “Hi!” “You’re cute!” “Thanks, you too!” “Want to go out?” “I’d love to, but I’m going to be a nun!” “Really? Please reconsider every life choice you’ve made and carefully considered moral and ethical values. For me.” “Okay! I’ve changed my mind!” “Great! I’ll see you in a few days!”
The original tale of Joe Chill, no doubt by Bill Finger, is that Batman has been Batman for many years, when he sees Chill and recognizes him. Until that moment, he had no idea who he was, or if was alive or dead. His confrontation is both personal and calculated. He is quite prepared to give up being Batman to bring Chill to justice. It’s a great story that owes as much to O. Henry as it does to the pulps. I disagree with Martin that Chill should have remained uncaught. But I don’t like to read Batman stories where Joe Chill is a fetish, who must be constantly invoked. Batman shouldn’t ignore the unsolved mysteries in his career, but he oughtn’t to dwell on them either.
Finger’s story was a nice, neat well-constructed package. Barr has hot-glued 400 puzzle pieces to it and it’s ugly.
Welcome back. The Bat penis references really tell me when this was recorded.
I’d be cool if you fast-forwarded your coverage to the next Breyfogle showing. I long ago sold off these comics. I haven’t missed them a bit!
What are you talking about Hix? We recorded this episode last week. You’re from the future, after all!
Chris
Woo, you guys were comin’ in hot on this episode. Thrilled that the show is back, but you both sounded so beleaguered.
Considering Chris’ love for the 1960s TV series, kind of amazed he didn’t make a Bat-Pole joke. #Thankful
After next episode, we get to some good stuff! We have fun with it, either way.
Chris
There won’t be a better evil hippie story until Tarantino’s Once Upon a Time in Hollywood.
Welcome back, guys!
I also want to say that I still enjoy the heck out of Knightcast (I’ve been known to take the piss out of Mike Barr too, you know) even when the comics aren’t to their tastes. Ryan and Chris make it funny, and that’s how you handle material you don’t like.
Dick jokes.
oHOTmu OR NOT? stands in solidarity with Knightcast.
I think we should do an oHOTmu or Not/Knightcast crossover, which is nothing but dick jokes for 2 hours.
Now that’s classy!
Chris
Hi Chris and Ryan,
It is great to see the Knightcast back and running, unfortunately the stories you came back to were not the best ones to celebrate your return. It was good to hear your discussion though on both comics and as you said, we have some good ones approaching soon for you to get your teeth into. Look forward to when you get to the Wagner/Grant/Breyfogle run.
Jimmy