Chris Franklin and Ryan Daly review DETECTIVE COMICS #569, the first exciting issue by the creative team of Mike W. Barr and Alan Davis!
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Music from the Batman and Batman Returns original motion picture soundtracks by Danny Elfman. Additional music: “You Belong to the City” by Glenn Frey; “La, La, La, He, He, Hee” by Prince.
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EAT BAT GUANO, COLLINS AND STARLIN! YOUR SUPERIORS HAVE ARRIVED AND FOUND YOU WANTING!
Ahem, sorry. But seriously, Barr and Davis are one of my favorite Batman teams, up there with Loeb and Lee, Timm and Dini, and of course, Cooke and Cooke.
I LOVE the idea of Batman being just a little self aware, and reacting accordingly. (“Don’t you EVER reference that show again, Jason! I looked RIDICULOUS!”) While that show should be respected, there’s also some room for some mocking.
NOW WE’RE TALKING.
I unreservedly love these Barr/Davis issues of ‘Tec. I agree, they mix the flavor of the 60s TV series with a more modern approach which I thought really worked. To me, these stories ARE Batman comics to me, everything I like about the characters and situations. It is tragic that the run was cut so short, but I loved what we got. And I loved the poster-like cover, it reminds me of those great Dick Sprang or Jerry Robinson ones from the 40s–our hero in some unreal situation which conceptualizes the story, Great all around!
Ryan still sounded sick during the issue discussion, then much better during the feedback. Unless he has discovered some miracle cure for colds, I assume the segments were recorded some time apart? #BehindThePodcast
Can’t wait to hear the episodes on the rest of this series!
Actually, the episode was recorded all at once, but for the feedback session, we used a Ryan Daly robot, straight from the Fortress (or if you’re a Marvel guy, a Life Model Decoy).
Chris
Glenn Frey, guys? C’mon. It’s a scientific fact his solo output is terrible.
Other than that, great show on a great era.
I requested Ryan put that in for you, David.
Even though “The Dude” hated the Eagles, I quote “Yeah, well, you know, that’s just, like, your opinion, man. ”
Chris
Looking forward to DesperPodo: An Eagles podcast
Don’t tempt me…I just may do it! I love that name. I’ll give you full credit for it if it goes through.
Chris
I get 50%
I’m with Rob, that cover is just perfect, with the massive classic logo (‘Comics’ apart) the icing on the giant prop cake. What they did to Catwoman really annoyed me, Selina had been a great supporting character for years and seeing her forced back into a life of crime was upsetting. Plus, I wanted to be on the path to an Earth 2-style marriage.
I didn’t really agree with it either Martin, but I think they were more or less resetting the board. Oddly enough, in a new universe, they didn’t have to! As we’ll see in the very next month after this story concludes, we’re in a whole new continuity as of Batman: Year One. Or, at the very least, certain aspects are new.
Chris
Another excellent episode
This issues seems they be where things picked up definitely going to have to hunt this issue down
Really loved the art in this issue it dose have the animated series feeling which wouldn’t suprise me if this was one they used fir inspiration in the design
I have no problem with the skinny joker even though he dose look like jack skellington it works fir me as I feel it makes the joker creepier as this almost skeleton like guy
And I do like straight line just the concept of the guy changing outfits to fit some mood just fits working with the joker and well I just chalk it up to the joker just attracts crazy people though while I love Harley I kind of miss when joker would have a one off henchmen in these comics
It’s always interesting to hear about the phase that everyone gose through with the 60s show as i never went through that always loved the show abd never understood when writers and the such wouod try to almost mock the show though it makes me wonder when the Nolan trilogy abd what it brought to the character will be looked on in later years who knows maybe there will be a phase for that series
im saving my thoughts for Jason when you guys get to the death in the family issues but I will say I kind of like him in this issue dose make me think of the return of tha caped crusader film
Catwoman im of two minds with on the one hand she is one of his most recognizable foes abd the dynamic between them is great but
I also like the aspect of her trying to be a ally to him which I also like there eventual marriage from earth two heck the brave abd the bold cartoon did that with Damian being there kid I actually liked a lot more the how it went in the comics
But I can see why some writers resort her back to the villain role that version is the most well known version especially which is used in the tv shows abd movies the ally of Bataman just seems to be something that has trouble sticking
Though if it were up to me I’d rather have magpie take the theif role and let catwoman have the ally role.
Well that’s all for me till the next episode
My problem with the early Outsiders has a lot to do with how Batman has basically set them all up to fail. He is the WORST leader/mentor. But I don’t have that problem with Barr’s solo (or duo) Batman stories, strangely. Can’t wait to rediscover his run with you.
W00t! Kavalier & Clay is one of my favorite books ever. Even though it’s a thick brick, I wanted to start rereading it as soon as I finished it, and I’m someone who doesn’t reread very many books because it’s already a tragedy that I’ll never read everything I want or should before I die. Get on that Chris! Fire and Water Book Club, coming soon from our Network!
I loved how the New Teen Titans/Outsiders crossover showed that Batman REALLY WAS a lousy leader as compared to his young apprentice, Robin. Dick totally owned Bruce in that instance, and I LOVED it.
My shame of not reading Kavalier & Clay is even worse since my wife is a librarian. SHAME I TELL YOU!!!
Chris
Oh and considering you did a Secret Origins with DJ Nath and Shotgun, your choice of Art Girl as your favorite Canadian made at least one of them cry.
Shame. SHAME!
Ryan Daly: Making “at least one of them cry” since 1981.
You know who made me love this era? Robin. Barr and Davis gave Robin an infectious joy that was missing in the pre-Crisis Jason days. While sometimes Jason was written as being a bit younger than physically depicted (couldn’t tell if he was 10 mentally or 15 physically), here was a kid who had the most dangerous and amazing job — and he knew it. Sadly, this was all undone when people like Rob Kelly conspired to murder Jason.
Of course, Davis’ art doesn’t hurt things. Like with Marshall Rogers, his stay was too brief – but my god, it was beautiful.
Good point. When you have a young Robin, I think you have to go all in. This is similar to how Timm and company handled their Tim Drake (who was a synthesis of Tim and Jason 2.0). He was a little kid on big adventures, and it worked. Hey, maybe the animated guys WERE looking at these comics!
I heard rumors that Rob Kelly was THAT guy who set up his phone to automatically dial 1-900-WHACK-A-TEEN over and over, thus ensuring Jason’s demise.
Chris
Don’t piss Rob off. He’s killed before and he’ll do it again.
He bought the election!
Never bought these books on a consistent basis, but certainly bought plenty of ‘miniseries in a series’ stories like the Year X arcs, mudpack. Ten nights of the beast, etc. So listening intently.
I read this issue in the Greatest Joker Stories Ever Told trade and loved it. Beautiful art by Davis, one of those artists who elevates every property he’s in. Outsiders? Excalibur? The Nail? All better with Davis. And this Catwoman is stunning.
Intrigued that Bendis is Ryan’s favorite DD. I preferred Brubakers run. But after a while the relentless ‘destruction of Matt Murdock’ storylines got old. So the Waid happier Matt is also loved.
I guess I am going to have to give Kavalier and Clay another shot. I tried reading it back around 2004 or so and found the opening chapters to be really dry. I’m older now and tastes change so I guess I’ll throw it on the pile.
I absolutely love these issues of DETECTIVE. I may joke about them but they were fantastic, old school Batman and Robin fighting bad guys stories with some great character work thrown in for good measure. Barr had a firm handle on the Dark Knight and I agree with everyone that raved about his take on Robin. It is a shame that Alan Davis didn’t stick around longer because I think he had the potential to rise to Breyfogle heights as a Batman artist. I like just about all of his work on this series except for his Joker. The poofy hair does nothing for me and he lacks the malice to go with the mirth. Other than that it’s a beautiful book to read.
The decision to have Catwoman go back to being a bad guy and forgetting Bruce’s identity was unfortunate and one of that smacks of a new editor having a problem with a previous direction and, to their minds, righting the ship. Or maybe it had to do with Miller. Given that we get YEAR ONE just a few months after this and the total hatchet job Miller does on Selina’s backstory it wouldn’t surprise that Frank’s S and M take on Catwoman had something to do with her going back to the dark side in these issues. I know everyone raves about YEAR ONE and it is certainly the best thing to ever happen to Jim Gordon but Selina deserved a lot better, but that’s a rant for when you get to those issues.
Great job, fellas. Can’t wait for the next one.
Like DC later would, I chose to ignore Miller’s portrayal of Selina somewhat. But you’re probably right, O’Neil probably told Barr to get Selina back on the bad side to line up with Miller. But the very fact that he bothered, when this COULD be all new ground with a Catwoman who never went “good” is yet another editorial headscratcher.
Chris
I agree that this Robin is basically Dick. As a young newb, it was a challenge to differentiate between him and Jason and, as an adult, I have more appreciation for their initial differences appearance-wise. His original Robin costume looked good – a lot better than adult Earth-2 Robin – and beat Tim to the punch w/ the green leggings. I wonder if the TV series’ influence was the reason DC stuck Jason in Dick’s costume and dyed his ginger hair. Except for perhaps a hairstyle, the two were indistinguishable.
http://ultimatebatmancomicswebsite.weebly.com/robin-ii—jason-todd-pre-crisis.html
I loved, loved LOVED the Don Newton-designed costume for Jason 1.0. I interviewed Gerry Conway about Jason in Back Issue #48, and he commented that the new costume was probably torpedoed due to licensing. DC had a lot of merchandise (including the then-upconing Super Powers toyline) with the classic Robin look on the shelves, so Jason was forced to look just like his predecessor.
Chris
Ah, what would start one of my all-time favorite runs in comics; Batman or otherwise. Oh, how I wish it had lasted longer – and Catwoman had not been subjected to her fate. I really enjoyed the show and envied both of you talking about it. I loved the cover. Look at the mouths of each character on the cover and notice all the expressions conveyed; it’s a perfect depiction of the reactions on the cover. (How often does an artist have me look at mouths, of all things?) I thought Davis’ take on the Joker was great too. In my mind, I called this a “glam” version of the Joker, but still just as menacing as any artist could do. Nice balance; hard to pull off, but he makes it come off with ease.
I thought that this creative team really complimented each other; yes of course, Barr and Davis mesh and blend so well – but even Neary’s inks and John Workman’s lettering should get some praise too. When I think of this issue, I can close my eyes and visualize Workman’s distinctive style; particular words bolded for effect. Aside from maybe Tom Orzechowski’s work on Uncanny X-Men, no other letterer immediately comes to my mind that “fit” perfectly with the writing and artwork. Great stuff! Thank you!
I find your analysis of Pre-Crisis elements and storylines in these Batman stories published after the Crisis series ended fascinating… and further cements what many comic book readers either did not know or had forgotten: that the *original* intent of Crisis on Infinite Earths was to streamline the DC multiverse into a single universe, and aside from the history changes involving the non-Earth-One characters, most of the DC titles (which had mostly taken place on Earth One) were still carrying forward with most of their Earth-One continuity intact. The idea of “rebooting” the DC continuity (with “Man of Steel” and “Batman Year One”, “Emerald Dawn” and eventually “HawkWorld”) came after-the-fact (though I am not fully clear on exactly when the reboot decision was made, but it must have been after Crisis #11 and #12 was produced…).
Wolfman did want the titles to restart with issue #1 the month Crisis #12 shipped, and I believe he preferred a hard restart. If so, his hit New Teen Titans was probably one of the reasons the complete reboot didn’t happen, since it would take several years to get that team up and running in a new continuity. Of course Byrne’s idea of a brand-new Superman was also shot-down, despite being promised as such. He had the Man of Steel mini to fill in the holes, and then we were to suppose Superman was established as before, just with a new background.
Chris
Another excellent show Ryan and Chris. Beautiful art by Alan Davis and the story by Barr was interesting, although, like you said, it was weird that they still were wedded to the pre-Crisis interpretation of Catwoman as being the occasional partner of batman when the opportunity was there to start afresh. Straightline was a nice sidekick to the Joker, although you wonder if Gaggy from the Silver Age could have been used. He was brought back to good effect during the Gotham City Sirens run as an opponent to Harley Quinn. Good show and look forward to the next one.
Another excellent episode! So glad to hear you tackling issues you loved! Not a lot to say from me, cause y’know, I’m over my Batman phase…
But now that I’m reading BATMAN & THE OUTSIDERS and loving it, I might enjoy these Mike W Barr DETECTIVE issues! Never read them, so I might have to get a reprint.
Also, I found the “Holy Gutenberg” line pretty funny. Batman’s response was obviously a reaction to the old show, but Robin’s line makes sense. The Gutenberg bible would be a holy relic. So it works on multiple levels! Ha!
I came away from the book tonight thinking, “Damn, that is easily the best one so far,” and wanted to come share…… but turns out that was far from an original thought. Now I need to go listen!
I get tired of all this fighting over which Batman characterization is valid.
I like Batman being a long Saga with an arc. That starts out like he was in O’Niel and other Bronze Age stories, but then he gets Darker because of many Tragedies leading to the Batman of War Games, OMAC Project and Infinite Crisis. But he eventually get better from that and finds peace which is why Morrison’s Batman saga was going for.
For me that’s where Batman ends, screw Miller and the New52.