JLI Podcast #20 – Justice League International #20 (Dec 1988)

The dastardly creative Luke Daab joins The Irredeemable Shag to discuss Justice League International #20 (Dec 1988)! Big Barda and the JLI finally locate Mister Miracle... on Apokolips!! And while the team is trying to rescue Scott, they also need to save themselves from Darkseid's minions! All this AND the debut of Ty Templeton as regular penciller! Luke and Shag cover what was on the shelves that same month, recap and discuss the JLI issue, and tackle YOUR listener feedback!

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19 responses to “JLI Podcast #20 – Justice League International #20 (Dec 1988)

  1. Shag & Luke are the new Blue & Gold — who else is gonna appreciate Hawkpeople butts?

    Ty the Guy inking himself is the gold standard, tho this issue’s creative team was firing on all cylinders. (Bob Lappan’s lettering especially can never receive too much praise — he is one of the best.) Ty was definitely the best, most logical successor to Maguire at the time.

    I forget if it fell on Ty to design the new Rocket Red design… but I dig it! I miss the classic version, but this is a cool-looking upgrade, especially when Bart Sears eventually draws it.

    Thanks for the Captain Atom annual recommendation. I’ve never warmed up to that series, even after trying the few scattered JLI cameos, but this flew under my radar. Will give it another go.

  2. Great episode as usual, guys! To the question of whether or not Hawkwoman’s behind was an oversexualized drawing… let me start by saying that this question hadn’t even occurred to me before you guys brought it up, so I’m not trying to claim any moral high ground here, and certainly not to condemn Templeton. But while you guys are talking about Hawkwoman’s pose, her posture, her proportions, etc., I’m asking myself the whole time “did the drawing have to be done from *behind* Hawkwoman in the first place? Why couldn’t it have been composed so that the guys were in the foreground, with the women in the background looking on, but such that we still saw everyone’s face?” I offer no conclusions. Just another aspect to think about.

  3. In my opinion, the Fire and Hawkgirl panel was not over the top. I would not even have noticed it, if it was not brought up on the show.

  4. I won’t be on the show for FOUR YEARS?!? Like we’ll still be even talking then!

    You guys admitted you know how I killed Robin with but a phone call, and yet you were pretty flip about me. Is that really the wisest choice? (And no, I didn’t get my 50 cents back from DC when Jason returned)

    I loooooove Ty Templeton’s work. That said, I’m not sure he was a good fit for Justice League. As I have said before, I enjoyed the book’s lighter tone from the outset, but as I continued to read it I still wanted it to be JUSTICE LEAGUE, and everything that august name represents. When the book became more of a comedy it stopped being the thing I wanted it to be. That doesn’t make it bad or wrong of course, just not exactly what I was hoping for, especially since the first 10 or so issues of the title were so great.

    Luke Daab is like a ray of sunshine on any show he visits.

  5. P.S. Looking back over the pages in the Gallery post makes me rethink what I wrote about Templeton’s work being suited for a JUSTICE LEAGUE title–it really is superb work, and I can now better appreciate how he was able to modulate his style depending on the strip. (Surely master inker Josef Rubinstein had something to do with that) This is really top notch stuff.

  6. That Daab guy, is there no ends to his talents? I have quite a bit of his art on my living room wall, if that tells you anything!

    I love Ty Tempelton’s stuff as well, and I was very happy to meet him and talk to him at Heroes Con (just like I got to meet Luke)! I thought JLI was in good hands with him, and I’ve followed him since, onto the DCAU titles and his Batman ’66 work. I’m still not a big Manga Khan guy, but at least the arts in good hands, plus anytime you get the Justice League against Darkseid’s forces, it cues up my old Super Powers love.

    Great episode fellas!!!


    1. I just took a look at the infamous “talking butts” panel. Hawkgirl is completely tasteful, in my opinion. Fire…well, her cheeks are hanging out. Given, that’s the design of the costume, but it had to be a conscious decision to show that. Maguire showed more of her in the Bruce Wayne as Bond storyline, so we can’t really fault Templeton TOO much. It doesn’t bother me, but I’m sure it may raise a stink nowadays if published as is.


  7. A fun episode with the Irre-Daab-able Duo. I haven’t checked out Luke’s art yet, but will do so soon. Sounds like great stuff.

    Templeton: When I first saw his style in JLI, it felt a touch more cartoony than Maguire’s, so I wasn’t sold immediately. But by issue 24, those thoughts were long gone. Ty the Guy brings his own energy and sense of humor to the series, and made himself a favorite of mine. And then there’s issue 26. AGH! No spoilers! Complete polar opposite of tone, and fantastic!

    Yes. I noticed the talking butts. Yes. I wouldn’t have mentioned it (Shagg), but they’re right up in yo face. Why do I feel apologetic! My take is since both Fire’s and Hawkwoman’s costumes are riding up pretty hard, it’s not completely innocent rear camera shot. Just IMHO. However, since Giffen did layouts for his plotting, I wonder if Keith proposed this panel’s camera angle, and Ty just went with it. Very, very well.

    A gripe: the coloring of Big Barda. Why are her top, gloves, and boots blue? No! They’re supposed to be yellow. No ifs, ands, or … uh-uh, not saying it.

    The scenes with Barda and J’onn are my Bwah-hah-hah moments. They’re all funny, believable, and earnest. JMD was spot on for their dialog. My take is J’onn was sheepish in saying “Please”, which is something he never feels, bu-oops-however definitely was in this situation. Hilarious.

    Ok, trying to walk through this. Guy is uber right-wing. Hawkman is “Republican.” Why is this ignored? Where are the scenes where Guy obnoxiously interacts with Hawkman like “Finally! Somebody on this team who’s not a weak-kneed liberal?”, just to have Hawkman … be Hawkman? I just feel like there’s a missed opportunity there.

    Sorry to open this can of worms or hawks, bu-however, as I remember, Ostrander’s retcon was that “Carter Hall, Jr/Hawkman” was a Thanagarian spy, and “Sherry/Hawkgirl” was an earthling who didn’t know. That’s why he turns on her after the Invasion!. I understand if “they were spies” is shorthand for the situation, bu-dammit-however it made Hall Jr just that much more evil, and shouldn’t be forgotten. Or should it??

    More good moments for my man, Dmitri. Hokey smokes, indeed!

    Until next time, same Butt-time, same Butt-chan-STOP IT!

  8. With the panel that is showing Fire and Hawkwoman there are a few things that this could give an kilter feel to it. Some of these are in the panel some are not.
    Within the panel:
    First is the clothing option they gave to Fire (or most female superheroes compared to males though Hawkman and Hawkwoman kinda switch this).
    Second is that the angle it’s from behind. The wider Rear angle tends to give the impression that the presence of the person from that view is not realised. This can also give the impression that what they are saying isn’t as important because we tend to focus the part of the body where the action is happening in this case it would be the face but that is hidden. So that mentally makes us think that why they are saying is less important I think they were trying to give the impression of overhearing a conversation but this probably would have been done better with a closeup of Hawkwoman and Fire’s face and the rest in the background.

    But besied what is inside the panel the context of the panel in the comic also creates this feel
    Fire stickes out here because of how little clothing she has. If you look at Big Barda, Granny Goodness, and Hawkwoman they are wearing clothing that actually cover up like a lot of the males do.
    Also there are not any other panels like this one with the male characters the closest one is two panels away with Blue Beatle and Hawkman talking but Hawkman is walking towards the “audience” and Blue Beetle has his head turned that way. The close proximity to each other also mentally helps point this out.

  9. Shagg and Luke: the Beetle and Booster (Booster and Beetle? Beester and Bootle?) of the FWP Network! This was a great issue, and a truly fun episode of the show. As for the Hawkgirl’s butt and friends panel…maybe she was just turned away from the “camera” because she couldn’t stand to look readers in the eye for too long with all of that messed up continuity being just barely held back behind the walls of her skull? Maybe, just maybe, with the eyes being the windows to the soul, if she faced us for too long, those windows…would be flung open across all space and time??? Anyway, yeah, the girls totally could have been drawn standing with their sides to the reader, their heads turned toward the rest of the conversation. Or whatever 🙂

  10. I finally caught up with the show so I can listen as things are covered and read issue 20 right before tackling it.

    I was taken aback by just how good Ty Templeton’s art was in here. I remember thinking it was pretty solid, but he was taking over this book as guys like Lee, Larsen, MacFarlane and Liefeld were breaking out and my young mind was almost certainly more interested in those, even if I really liked the JLI line-up.

    I’m pretty sure this isn’t an issue I’ve read before at all, which is interesting, as the first issue I picked up from the stands is only a couple months away now. I loved all things Apokolips from Super Powers, so when I saw this cool new JLI and Apokolips I couldn’t resist, so it’s a bit surprising I apparently missed this chapter in the tale when I set out to gather most of these issues awhile back.

  11. Hey! Where’s Jimmy? I only follow this podcast to get updates from the Irish Embassy!
    I bought this issue, probably only because of Ty Templeton. This was at a time when my comics-buying habit had been curtailed drastically. But my friends and I were great fans of (Our Guy) Ty and especially his book Stig’s Inferno. We had a sense of reflected pride when he learned he was working in Big Time Super-Hero Comics! Yay, the obscure indy artist we like will get recognized by wider fandom! He deserved it, too. As shown here, this was the perfect vehicle for him.
    Luke, sort-of thanks for the Hawkman update. Even though I am a tremendous fan of The Legion and The Justice Society, I think the character of Hawkman is patient zero for the horror of DC forcing a post-Crisis paradigm onto pre-Crisis semi-continuity. Carter Hall, archeologist, and Katar Hol, alien policeman, were given absolutely no consideration. Did their adventures happen, or not? Well, it depends on the whims of a given creative team, as there were no editors around who could say no to the “talent.” (And within a few years, the “mutilation of the heroes” would be the norm.)
    From the “backstage stories” you’ve shared here, it seems that Giffen and DeMatteis were scrambling to find characters to include in the JLI and meeting resistance from every other office. Hawkman’s comments in this issue reflect the image of the once mighty Justice League as nothing more than a team of cast-offs and forgotten heroes. Yet, even though Giffen, DeMatteis, Templeton, Lappan, et al., were scavaging for ingredients, they were able to create a wonderful feast!

  12. Kind of a good thing they changed the Rocket Red armor, cuz the USSR didn’t last the year.

    Not sure there’s much of a link between the issue and the movie its title tributes. It’s about a speed tour of Europe. Maybe Big Barda is being played by Suzanne Pleshette or something.

  13. Irish Embassy calling – sorry for the delay but I had to deal with complaints from Godiva of the Global Guardians for the last few weeks. Apparently she said that she should be the only person with perfect hair in the JLI world and the appearance of Luke Daab’s luxurious locks has her in a tizzy. Ahh, the joys of running an Embassy!

    Another great episode Luke and Shagg – the issue was an excellent introduction to Ty Templeton on art and the storyline progressed very well, bringing in all of the other Earth characters to Apokolips (except for Captain Atom – maybe they should create a new team so that he can get more air time? Hmmm…..)

    Anyway looking forward to the next episode and the tie up of the Apokolops Now storyline.

  14. The funny thing about the Hawkworld Katar vs the silver Age Katar is that the Silver age kata was clearly a stuffy conservative. Meanwhile, the Hawkworld Katar is much more liberal minded. The things that kill me about about these post crisis character renewals is that we never really saw Hawkworld’s Katar interact with Oliver Queen (DC’s most famous Liberal) until after all the Hawkmen are merged into one in Zero Hour.

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