Secret Origins #42: Phantom Girl and Grim Ghost

Ryan Daly and the Irredeemable Shag discuss Phantom Girl from Secret Origins #42, and whether or not Phantom Girl is the hottest Legionnaire. Then Siskoid joins Ryan to talk about the Grim Ghost, whose hotness doesn't come up, but his gayness sure does!

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29 responses to “Secret Origins #42: Phantom Girl and Grim Ghost

  1. While I guess it isn’t exactly _important_, the whole half-Cargggite situation with Phantom Girl is one of those things so silly it’s fun to talk about; sort of wish Ryan had bitten on that one rather than the Durlan/R.J. Brande business.

    1. What’s your problem, you killjoy, ball-busting, feminazi libertards!?!

      Heh, I never get to do this. It’s kinda fun. Let me try another one.

      I didn’t have a problem with how Cockrum drew Phantom Girl because I wasn’t looking at her face! Oooohhh!

      Well, it was fun channeling vintage Andrew Dice Clay, but my knuckles are getting sore, and I need them to knuckle down on this issue.

      I recognized even before I started reading Legion comics that Phantom Girl was the most direct inspiration for my childhood crush Kitty Pryde, and I love intangibility, so I was naturally positively disposed toward her. I also dug all of her minimalist contrast costumes. However, she’s a fake humble “not stuck up” rich girl who takes up with the lame TV-safe Fonzie “bad boy” in the ugly costume wielding a corny variation on a 100% ripped off power set. Throw in the confusing history invoking multiple dimensions & time periods, Apparition duplicating another member’s powers, and Phase being among the least interesting L.E.G.I.O.N. officers this side of Garryn Bek, equaled any potential attraction being negated. I do however like the Secret Origins story, given prophylactic benefit of the doubt by being co-written by a woman in a voice I recognize as authentically female. I had four sisters with four entirely different personalities, but Tinya sounds like one of them. #NotAllGirls, but definitely some are going to have boy-craziness as a paramount motivation, and I think Tinya was handled more realistically and responsibly here than she might have been with only a male guiding the story. If you gender-neutralize the narrative, it’s about a person in a repressive existence acting out to expand their horizons with an emphatic but not delusional draw toward the opposite sex. If it were about a dude, we wouldn’t say squat, so there’s no shame in Tinya’s game.

      Oh, and before I read Legion comics, based purely on visuals in house ads, I thought Dawnstar and Shadow Lass were the hot ones. Then I gravitated toward Phantom Lass and Shrinking Violet once I got to know the characters, but was ultimate most won over by Post-Zero Hour Saturn Girl. She’s uptight outtasight in all the right ways, and most importantly, I could divorce the character from her ’70s bikini bimbo version. This is obviously setting aside the fact that we’re only counting Legion-specific characters, because of course Supergirl is the hottest Legionnaire overall.

  2. I am looking forward to listening to this episode with great anticipation. FYI in case it’s not mentioned, the Grim Ghost recently made a cameo appearance in Scooby Doo Team-Up #13 where Mystery Inc meets Deadman, Phantom Stranger, & the Spectre. Other classic ghostly DC characters who pop up include: Kid Eternity, the Ghost Patrol, Gentleman Ghost, Michael Gallant (Capt. Triumph), JEB Stuart (Haunted Tank), & Tannarak.

  3. A F&W All-Star Episode! When you and Shag were talking about Phantom Girl’s backstory, I kept thinking “This sounds like Lonely Hearts fodder” and then you mentioned it, so there you go. This is another of of those odd “not an origin” stories from SO. It seems Cockrum’s art slipped quite a bit around this time, which is a shame because he was a relatively young guy. I think he had lots of health problems, though. Definitely one of the best costume designers in comics…EVER.

    The Gay/Grim Ghost…wow. That guy DID look dead-on the Silver Age Timely/Atlas/Marvel Black Knight, later retconned to be an ancestor to the Avengers character. Was this Roy playing fast and loose with copyrights again, and characters that MAY be in the public domain, like the Phantom of the Fair? Who knows. But it’s odd.

    Speaking of Roy, in either All-Star Companion Vol. 4 or Alter-Ego #100 he states that he has no clue why this Grim Ghost story was pulled out of mothballs over other, more mainstream characters. Obviously, Waid was in a thematic mood.

    Chris

  4. I’m commenting now because I might not make it through the entire episode. So far I’ve heard Shag ramble on about Phantom Girl for (checks phone) approximately three and a half hours and you haven’t even gotten to the story recap yet!

    I’m tickled at the idea that DC was so nervous about a character called The Gay Ghost that they renamed him in the entirely opposite direction of that word. I’m assuming in some moldy file DC has unused concepts for Orange Beetle, Mineral Man, and Tommy Yesterday.

    And while I’ll agree the cover is kinda meh, drawing and design-wise, I appreciate the relative guts it took to do the whole GG section in black and white.

  5. Only two shout outs to me this episode. That’s a bit light on. Any way to increase the Hixiness of the next episode?

  6. Just halfway through the podcast and will comment in full later, but just came across the mention of “County Ulster” at the start of the Grim Ghost story…..

    County Ulster? County Ulster????

    There is no such thing as County Ulster!!!! Ulster is the Northern Province of Ireland, and is made up of 9 counties, none of which are called Ulster! Now, there was a county Ulster back in the 1500s but that had long gone by the time of the setting of the story in 1700. It would be like calling one of the US states in a story Appalachia or New England.

    Sorry, pet peeve of mine! Wonder if that was in the original story or was that a Roy Thomas insertion? Anyway, back to the podcast…..:)

      1. LOL Fair comment – think though when Thomas referenced the actual Treaty of Limerick of 1691 and the Act (which was actually enacted in 1695), you would think he could get the name of the Irish county right!

      2. After Fritz lang? heck, yeah, we accept a city named Metropolis. We even accept it with a Georgio Moroder-produced soundtrack.

  7. Oh, I meant to comment on the cover. That looks like Dick G’s pencils to me. Frank McLaughlin had a very similar style, so I guess it may be him, but I think when Dick usually was credited as pencils, it was him. He may have fudged the inking credits here and there. But that looks like his work to me.

    Chris

    1. Yeah, there’s no way that’s not Giordano, he was drawing Jonni Thunder in similar style just a few years earlier.

      Anyway, groovy episode, even if I am amazed that Shagg finds Phantom Girl sexier than Princess Projectra. Blimey, now there was a Seventies costume!

      You’re right to discount that alleged first appearance of Tinya in Legion crowd scenes. It’s about as valid as the guy recoloured in DC’s Adventure Comics #247 reprints being Brainiac 5.

      And well done Jimmy on the ‘County Ulster’ correction, I cringed and I’m at least two generations away from the Irish sides of the family. Bad Roy Thomas! Other than that, nothing to say about the Grey Ghost, other than that the ‘romance with your lover’s descendant’ is a bit to TV Wonder Woman for me.

  8. Sorry Shag, Shadow Lass is way hotter!!!!!!

    I go back to Cary Bates, Jim Shooter and Mike Grell, with the Legion. I read it off and on (more on than off), through the Great Darkness Saga, then a lot more sporadic afterward. I never got into the 5 Year After stuff. I came back, for a time, with Legionnaires, though not for terribly long. These days, I laugh a bit at my era, with the disco-era costumes; but, danged if they don’t have more character than some of the later stuff. I do have to question why Phantom Girl gets an entry, before many others; but, the Waid era feels like he knew the end was coming and just started throwing favorites in there.

    I still think DC should have stuck with Gay Ghost and went with it, recruiting Howard Cruse (Wendell, Stuck Rubber Baby) to write it (or Robert Rodi). It would have been different. Maybe recruit P Craig Russell to do the art.

    1. I wouldn’t have agreed with you about Shadow Lass until a week ago when I picked up this issue in a fifty-cent bin:
      Secrets of the Legion of Super Heroes #2

      Damn, she looks good on that cover! Like a blue-skinned Deja Thoris! Why didn’t she look that good in her own secret origin? Damn you, Tom Mandrake, go back to drawing The Spectre!

      1. Yeah, she had the skimpiest costume of all the Legion ladies and Cockrum and Grell knew how to showcase her, (AHEM) s”stature.”

  9. This is an odd story of Phantom Girl’s early dating style. Sort of a weird origin.

    I have to comment on Action 276, reviewed here by me: http://comicboxcommentary.blogspot.com/2010/04/back-issue-box-action-comics-276.html

    That issue is the first appearance of 6 … 6!!!! … Legionnaires. Phantom Girl, Triplicate Girl, Shrinking Violet, Bouncing Boy, Sun Boy, and Brainiac 5! Plus Supergirl joins! And the Brainy/Kara romance begins!

    Tinya does have a storied history with the team but it ended horribly. In the New 52, she leads a mission where Sun Boy dies. So distraught at her failure, she literally runs away to Bgztl. Sad.

    Shag is right, the Uktra Boy as villain story was retold as the 5YL first annual, mixing in some of the new Legion history that happened post Glorith.

    As for the hottest legionnaire, it is obviously Lightning Lass.

      1. That particular annual, though, was fantastic – it was more than a simple retelling of Legion history, it gave a whole new spin on Ultra Boy, deepening his character enormously.

  10. Ugh. Two Shag appearances on this network in a matter of three days? That’s like tuning into a 3 Stooges marathon and seeing nothing but Joe Bessers.

    But, I do have to agree with Shag – Tinya is one of the better members of the LSH and easily my favorite. She’s the character that got me reading L.E.G.I.O.N. and kept me reading after the second and third reboots.

    What’s wrong with a Gay Ghost? Who wouldn’t want to be haunted by Paul Lynde? Shame, DC Comics. shame.

  11. Very good episode Ryan.

    Re Phantom Girl, I believe the story that Shagg was talking about re Phantom Girl’s (or Apparition’s) baby originated in Legion Worlds, which was a six issue mini-series by current Aquaman scribe Dan Abnett and his writing partner at the time Andy Lanning, which followed the Legionnaires that were not involved in the Legion Lost maxi-series, an excellent storyline. This was subsequently followed up in the revised Legion series that came out from both.

    Apart from the Abnett/Lanning run, the best run for me, and the time I started to collect the series regularly was post Zero Hour – this was a true stepping on point and there was plenty of nods to past stories while giving that Legion its own storylines unencumbered by the past. Phantom Girl was a major part of that line and participated in some of the good storylines from there. I enjoyed the Phase character in the L.E.G.I.O.N. book and the linking of Phantom Girl and Phase as being part Craggite was a nice touch, although I believe the story of finding what happened to the Third Phantom Girl was abandoned.

    Not much to say on the Grim Ghost – only came across him in that Animal Man issue that one time. His back story takes elements from the Spectre, Deadman and Gentleman Ghost to make him not very unique to be honest.

  12. What’s your problem, you killjoy, ball-busting, feminazi libertards!?!

    Heh, I never get to do this. It’s kinda fun. Let me try another one.

    I didn’t have a problem with how Cockrum drew Phantom Girl because I wasn’t looking at her face! Oooohhh!

    Well, it was fun channeling vintage Andrew Dice Clay, but my knuckles are getting sore, and I need them to knuckle down on this issue.

    I recognized even before I started reading Legion comics that Phantom Girl was the most direct inspiration for my childhood crush Kitty Pryde, and I love intangibility, so I was naturally positively disposed toward her. I also dug all of her minimalist contrast costumes. However, she’s a fake humble “not stuck up” rich girl who takes up with the lame TV-safe Fonzie “bad boy” in the ugly costume wielding a corny variation on a 100% ripped off power set. Throw in the confusing history invoking multiple dimensions & time periods, Apparition duplicating another member’s powers, and Phase being among the least interesting L.E.G.I.O.N. officers this side of Garryn Bek, equaled any potential attraction being negated. I do however like the Secret Origins story, given prophylactic benefit of the doubt by being co-written by a woman in a voice I recognize as authentically female. I had four sisters with four entirely different personalities, but Tinya sounds like one of them. #NotAllGirls, but definitely some are going to have boy-craziness as a paramount motivation, and I think Tinya was handled more realistically and responsibly here than she might have been with only a male guiding the story. If you gender-neutralize the narrative, it’s about a person in a repressive existence acting out to expand their horizons with an emphatic but not delusional draw toward the opposite sex. If it were about a dude, we wouldn’t say squat, so there’s no shame in Tinya’s game.

    Oh, and before I read Legion comics, based purely on visuals in house ads, I thought Dawnstar and Shadow Lass were the hot ones. Then I gravitated toward Phantom Lass and Shrinking Violet once I got to know the characters, but was ultimate most won over by Post-Zero Hour Saturn Girl. She’s uptight outtasight in all the right ways, and most importantly, I could divorce the character from her ’70s bikini bimbo version. This is obviously setting aside the fact that we’re only counting Legion-specific characters, because of course Supergirl is the hottest Legionnaire overall.

  13. Alright boys, I thought we covered this on the Golden Age Atom episode, but let’s try again. Expressions of male heterosexual intimacy were much more common and public until the mid-20th century, when general awareness of sexuality took a sharp uptick thanks to Kinsey & Masters & Johnson & Company. Common people were staggeringly ignorant about sexuality of any stripe, between the church, obscenity laws and a lack of research in the field. Most information passed around was anecdotal and unverified, with the specifics of congress worked out between the practitioners through trial and error. Outside of a stag reel or a cat house, folks didn’t have a lot of educational opportunities. Between published findings on the subject, a rise in feminism, and the invention of the pill, we had the sexual revolution of the 1960s.

    Gardner Fox was a learned individual in 1930s New York, so he almost certainly was aware of the existence of homosexuals, but the usage of terms like “gay” and “queer” in that context was not general knowledge outside of those circles. Most probably, Fox was referring to the strange gaiety of his ghost. I strongly suspect that perceived homosexual subtext in Golden Age comics by modern audiences is often actually a reflection of McCarthy era lavender panic and widespread homophobia following in the wake of the sexual revolution. Once the public was aware of homosexuality, they reacted with open revulsion, the rendering of queer terminology as pejorative, and an aversion to displays of male intimacy to avoid the appearance of “impropriety.” By seeing these displays as “gay,” we perpetuate the stereotypes that displays of same-sex intimacy is exclusive to gays and that it is inherently bad.

    I don’t know if I own an unabridged copy of Sensation Comics #1, but there’s no Gay Ghost in Wonder Woman Archive Editions. I might enjoy those original stories, but probably not, because they were written by Gardner Fffffffox, whose work defined much of what I hate about DC’s Golden & Silver Age scripting style. I definitely don’t like Roy Thomas’ adaptation here, surely among his worst for the series. I’m meant to side with the Earl of Strethmere, an English nobleman in a fancy castle with a crush. Well sorry, but he seems like a privileged prat with no redeeming qualities other than swordplay (though he unimpressively only bests one foe,) and the Irish cutthroats are at least industrious in brining him low. What’s worse is he’s supposed to be bound to the material plane by his love for two generations of a rather pedestrian lady lineage. What’s special about these chicks, beyond Keith Everet repeatedly telling us he wants to marry them?

    Okay, let me get this straight: The Gay Ghost is an Englishman with a castle in Ireland where his ladylove apparently resided with her runner-up babydaddy, since her 1940s descendent had to come from somewhere, also meaning America, which she left to face German intelligence agents in Ireland so the Gay Ghost could possess her buddy Beta Friendzone and they could both go back to America, except when the Ghost Council assigns GayG to battle Germans in England, since the story explicitly states that Ireland was neutral. Would it be possible to cut this down by at least one country? Would Roy Thomas literally die if he altered the origin the slightest bit so that everyone just stayed in England? Must proto-Deadman unethically in proto-Weekend At Bernie’s body (isn’t homeboy technically a zombie with all them fatal bullet wounds) dressed as proto-Corsair join the All-Star Squadron stateside? Plus, Atlas/Seaboard already published a book called The Grim Ghost with a better dressed character that displayed more personality in the few static images I’ve seen than GayG did in 20 pages. Top to bottom, nothing about The Gay-Grim Ghost works for me.

    I like Michael Bair’s art style, but he has his issues. I think he’s best for spot illustrations and inking, but his storytelling is okay, if stiff. I must say though that the repeated head shot on page 11 looks so much like early Liefeld that I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if it wasn’t his primary template for similar shots. I used to swipe Liefeld in the early ’90s, and I must have drawn variations on his probable swipe of that shot a dozen times.

  14. Hey all,

    There will be no consensus on the hottest legion lady, but Nura gets my vote, hands down.

    You talked about the cover looking like an homage and a bit dull. Dull? Yeah, but I always thought it was an homage to the first JLA/JSA crossover.

    The zoning of Bgtzl reminded me of the paranoia RPG with the different color zones.

    There were very few stories where Tinya was the star, but the story that first introduced her brother did come to mind (Superboy #215).

    I really wasn’t all that wild about the boy craziness portrayed in this issue. It seemed VERY out of character for someone with long history of having a strong feminist streak. Yes, she was often portrayed as emotional – but this was a bit much. Tinya Wazzo, damsel in distress? Nuh-uh.

  15. Tinya’s picture on the cover is reminiscent of her picture in the Origins and Powers of the Legion that are reprinted on occasion in the Silver Age.

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