In the third episode, I am joined by Professor Carolyn Cocca as we discuss the 2011 novel The Song of Achilles by Madeline Miller. Is the love affair between Achilles (“Best of Greeks”) and Patroclus (“Best of the Myrmidons”) realistic? Listen and find out!
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Hi Stella,
This is a wonderful podcast. Congratulations! This was another great episode with a terrific guest. when you made your introductions, you joked that you were going to compare The Iliad to “The Women.” That got my brain whirring, and I found a great deal of similarities. Both stories are about people who are at or near the top of their respective societies. Their main concerns are their reputations and what others will think of them. In almost every case, their reputation is closely tied to who their spouse is, however that spouse is acquired. They give little thought to the people who feed, fight, and fix for them. These “lower-caste” non-named persons are inconsequential to the main story. In The Iliad, the fight and die namelessly. In “The Women,” they feed and dye, and do nails, namelessly.
I wish I had kept notes while listening!
The values held dearest in both stories are “honor” and acquisitions. Achilles will let scores of nameless conscripted soldiers be killed rather than do what he can to fight the enemy and shorten the war, because he is more interested in protecting his “reputation.” His “honor” is more highly valued than his vaunted skill, honesty, humility, sacrifice, or anything that might be defined as altruistic. “Honor,” in this sense is essentially selfishness. In “The Women” most of the cast are either trying to defend their “honor” or actively trying to destroy another woman’s. The destruction to relationships, their children’s lives, and the innocent shop-workers and servants caught in the crossfire is of no concern to them.
When the author gives us a clear example of a character who is not caught up in this “honor-above-all” credo, Patroclus from Homer and Peggy Day from Luce, we can see the comparison of something trying to do the right thing despite the difficulties.
From the Ancient World to “contemporary” drama, at least one thing remains the same. The farther away your social standing is from the gods, and the controlling powers, the less likely you are to be a featured player.
It was great to hear Professor Cocca back on the show. It was also refreshing to hear two people have a friendly discussion, even when they don’t agree on every point.
On my read through of “The Song of Achilles,” I found the whole Achilles-Patroclus-Briseis relationship triangle to be really interesting. The fact that Achilles killed members of Briseis’ family explains the distance between them, but I also read jealousy on his part towards her relationship with Patroclus. This would help to explain why Achilles had no problem using Briseis in his plan to trap Agamemnon. A plan which was thwarted by the kindness and compassion of Patroclus. Achilles’ inability to “share” Patroclus also highlights his self-centeredness that may have grown out of his coming to believe his own hype, which you discussed with the good professor.
My daughter also pointed out something interesting to me. She believes that this novel, which is narrated entirely by Patroclus, is actually the story that he tells Thetis about her son at the end of the book. I thought that was a cool interpretation.
Thanks for another incredible episode.