Look up! Chris and Rob are back with fellow network all-stars Ryan Daly, Cindy Franklin, Siskoid, and Brett Young to discuss the new SUPERMAN movie!
Opening theme by John Williams.
This podcast is a proud member of the FIRE AND WATER PODCAST NETWORK:
- Visit the Fire & Water WEBSITE: http://fireandwaterpodcast.com
- Follow Fire & Water on BLUE SKY – https://bsky.app/profile/fwpodcasts.bsky.social
- Like our Fire & Water FACEBOOK page – https://www.facebook.com/FWPodcastNetwork
- Support The Fire & Water Podcast Network on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/fwpodcasts
- Use our HASHTAG online: #FWPodcasts
- E-MAIL: fwpodcasts@gmail.com
Thanks for listening!
Podcast: Play in new window | Download
Yes! Finally!
Great discussion! I liked the new Superman movie a lot. It’s actually only the second movie I’ve seen in theaters since 2019 (the other being The Flash lol). I agree David Corenswet is fantastic and comes across like he really is Superman rather an actor playing the role.
Overall, I still prefer the Christopher Reeve movies, at least the first two (and I still maintain Superman III is better than its reputation). I don’t know if it’s an age or generational thing on my part, but the pace and intensity of modern comic book movies overwhelms me. The Reeve movies are more my speed. But the new movie is good and feels more like a comic book than any DC comic book movie I’ve seen. I like how they unabashedly embrace comic-book zaniness like the “Superman robots,” the hypno-glasses (which is one of the first comic-book covers I remember seeing), the Justice Gang, and the TV news anchor referring to Green Lantern and Hawkgirl by their hero names.
It occurred to me this is the first Superman movie series in which Superman was not trained by a powerful AI-like Jor-El (unless you count 1951’s Superman and the Mole Men, I guess!). Also, although this is the 10th theatrical movie in which Superman has appeared in a non-cameo role (going back to 1951), Christopher Reeve is still the only actor to have played Superman in more than one solo Superman film.
Finally, I just wanted to say how much I’ve enjoyed this podcast over the years! I hope there’s still more to come on some subject, despite Rob’s understandable feeling about Superman IV (which I don’t entirely disagree with, though I still hope you cover it in some limited way!).
I posted the following review online after seeing the movie on Friday. I’ve edited it a little because y’all know who the characters are.
Overall, I really liked James Gunn’s Superman movie. I have heard it described as a DC comic come to life and that is absolutely true. Some things I liked and a few that I didn’t:
–I liked David Corenswet’s portrayal of the central character. He looked like Kal-El and acted like Kal-El.
–As expected, Krypto was awesome.
–Everything about the Fortress of Solitude was perfect, particularly the robots.
–They got Guy Gardner right. If anything, they dialed down the jerkiness a little from the comics.
–Nicholas Hoult is perhaps the best live-action Lex Luthor on the big screen. He looks a little young to me, but the character was right. Michael Rosenbaum from Smallville and the Justice League animated versions are still may favorites.
–The opening text onscreen is a smart idea to set up the context.
–Mr. Terrific is every bit as terrific as he is in the comics.
–I didn’t like the change to Superman’s S shield. When a logo is that iconic and has lasted this long, it doesn’t need any “updating”.
–As my wife pointed out to me, it was a bit weird that Lois knows Clark’s secret before they have said “I love you”.
–There was a distinct lack of Clark Kent in the movie. I was a little anxious when Ma and Pa Kent showed up, but they were not quite as “Snuffy Smith” as I feared.
–Jimmy Olsen’s characterization was strange and unlike any Jimmy Olsen that I’ve read or seen.
–The part I liked least was the closing appearance of a familiar DC character who is drunk and refers to Kal as a b—h. No thank you.
As I have told my wife, it is almost impossible to make a Superman movie that I am 100% happy w/. But this probably came closer than anything since Superman 2 w/ Christopher Reeve.
And one other thing about comic book movies in general that relates to the upcoming Supergirl film. I don’t know that it is a good idea to advertise that a comic book movie is adapting a particular storyline or limited series UNLESS it is one that is unquestionably, undeniably, universally beloved by fandom AND you are going to replicate the storyline exactly.
My wife and I read the Woman of Tomorrow mini and did not like it at all. In fact, the final scene of Superman plus the knowledge that King’s series is going to be a template has me leaning toward skipping the Supergirl movie. I would much prefer something derived more from the current series by Sophie Campbell.
Likewise, I went into Thor: Ragnarok expecting all kinds of Walt Simonon-ish large-scale Asgardian action. It was disappointing and made it hard to enjoy the film.
IMHO it’s better to do what Superman did–create a comic book atmosphere that is true to the characters w/out basing it on any particular story..
Much like Mike Thomas above, this was, I think, the third superhero movie I’ve seen in a theater since Avengers Endgame.
Regarding the point about Clark Kent, I think that when Lois knows Clark is Superman, you will get more moments when he is “Relaxed Clark” around her (for instance, the scene between them when he says he’s turning himself in the find Krypto).
I don’t mind seeing less of “Clark Kent Persona” because we had so many scenes with “Relaxed and Real Clark.” I do wish we’d gotten the shirt rip moment — it would’ve only taken a minute to add this before the Kaiju scene.
I very much enjoyed the movie and like many have said, even someone here, it is the most comic book-y movie I have seen. (Althought THE Suicide Squad with Starro and the Polka Dot Man is also there).
I feel like this was akin to a six issue arc looking at the main theme of Superman finding his place in the world, inspiring, and dealing with the cynical world around him. Stuffed into that main story are the beats you get in individual chapters. Next issue Superman fights a Kaiju. Next issue Superman Arrested. This issue Superman escapes the Pocket Universe Prison. So even though there were many plot threads (I don’t know if I need the interdimensional zipper ripping apart the city), it ate it up.
The cast is just spot on. I also think that Hoult captured the petulant, jealous, ‘pure evil’ Lex perfectly and is probably the best live action Luthor. Lois was perfect. Superman was perfect. And the Justice Gang all held up their end.
But the big winner is Krypto who just steals the movie. I love how Lex is trying to still show strength when defeated only to have his speech cut short by Krypto tossing him around. That was THE moment of the movie.
Supergirl was the Tom King Supergirl so I was not surprised. She looked great. I can only hope that somehow the movie does her justice.
Great show and great hearing everyone’s thoughts, even if Cindy said it won’t take much for her to kill Chris. Dude, I have a couch you can sleep on if you feel unsafe. Hee hee hee.
Good to know, thank you Anj. That is a small comfort!
Great episode gang! I’d grade this film a solid B.
It’s a lot of fun & I agree with Rob’s assessment of it feeling like a live action comic book.
A couple of my quibbles:
1. The Daily Planet staffers beyond Jimmy Olsen don’t really get enough screen time to make a memorable impression. I did roll my eyes a bit when they all climbed into Mr. Terrific’s ship. It seemed as a way to justify Lois’ involvement in the third act.
2. The inclusion of the Krypto & the other heroes was fun, but they just appear without any backstory or real character development. This was especially glaring with Metamorpho. He’s more a plot device than a character. Do non-comics readers have any idea who he is? Maybe that’s unnecessary, but to me his inclusion feels underwritten. Krypto has appeared in animated productions aimed at kids in recent years, so perhaps he’s more of a known quantity to younger audiences.
3. I found the depiction of Supergirl utterly distasteful. Yes she will get a redemption arc in her movie, but I’m disappointed to see Kara as drunken stumblebum.
4. I truly wish they would refrain from using Luthor in the sequel. Actually, I’m finding the Luthor as billionaire corporate titan getting a little long in the tooth. I was surprised this Luthor never did the “Miss Teshmacher!” yell.
5. I’m in Cleveland so we saw lots of filming on the downtown streets last summer. If you’re a local, many of our landmarks are unmistakable. The final scene of Lois & Superman kissing was filmed in the Arcade, a magnificent piece of architecture.
The one thing that this Superman film (and nearly all other modern superhero movies) lacks is a sense of epic grandeur. The 1978 film especially, was populated by some real cinema icons that don’t really exist anymore.
I haven’t been to the cinema since last year’s Deadpool & Wolverine, but I’ll probably catch this a second time on the big screen.
Now I’m going to have to go and see the film so I can listen to this podcast!
I was impressed by three things (in general):
1. This portrayal of Superman, early in his career — just experiencing his first defeat, but still driven to help people the best that he can as he tries to level up from using his powers to using them well tactically, but still fundamentally a nice guy.
2. How they immediately put us in jeopardy, because Superman in the first scene is immediately on the back foot, and viewers can see the multi-pronged attack against him at the same time they can see how naive and trusting this Superman is. We are genuinely worried if he can win, and if he can win with his integrity intact.
3. The comic booky worldbuilding. Deftly done, painted with a minimum of effort but enough to sell it to non-comic book goers.
One of the best Superman films I’ve ever seen. And my son loved it too!
I was apprehensive when I started listening, because if it wasn’t a solid review of the film with (mostly) enjoyment, I was gonna be upset. And that’s not because the gang on the network aren’t good reviewers (they typically are), it’s a reflection that this movie has already won my heart. I was not disappointed – it’s good to hear that you all enjoyed it overall, even if it wasn’t a slam dunk for all. It was a slam dunk for me, but not a perfect movie.
A few thoughts I had while listening to the episode. I’ve seen the movie twice, and may try and see it again while it’s in theatres (after Fantastic Four of course).
1. While I agree we didn’t see a lot of Clark in the movie, I can’t think of sequences in the film that would have been logically cut to show us more Clark around the office action. I think we still got a sense of him (Clark and Lombard, Clark and Lois trading jabs about his writing), but this movie wasn’t about Superman’s secret identity as a theme the way elements of Batman Begins was. In an ideal world would we have seen a few extra scenes to showcase Clark Kent? Sure, but I don’t think the film lacked them as much as the film didn’t feature them.
2. Guy. I am solidly with you all that this was the first version of Guy I’ve ever like. Ever. I really have never understood the appeal of the “jerk” character that much. Logan is grumpy and moody, but not a cruel jerk to his team most of the time. Guy is just the kind of guy you would leave a team over in most depictions I’ve ever read of him (which are few; the iconic Bwahaha era). But Fillion brought the right “jerk” to the character, and the script brought the right “hero” to the character, and this blend worked.
3. I was apprehensive at first when I heard the “Justice Gang” was sponsored by Maxwell Lord, as elements of the film originally looked to lean heavily on the negative press against Superman aspect. But damn did that film pivot correctly on that – we didn’t linger too long on the mediafire against Superman, and while it remained a dangling plot thread, it didn’t crush us underfoot about it. Back to Lord – seeing the way plot threads are being woven together so coherently, now I can see both the ultimate betrayal of Lord and even perhaps the Justice Lords plots coming to bear here in future films.
4. I believe it was Siskoid who made an excellent point. This movie is for all, and the “not-we’s” in particular. The deep cut references are here, but they’re not trivia bombs – they’re dragged front in center in the story naturally and left to just be part of the world with pride and aplomb. But when we’re examining portrayals of characters like Metamorpho and Supergirl later in the story, Gunn is trying to make something we can latch onto if we’re not familiar with this character. Our queues for Metamorpho is that he’s got a kid he loves, a girlfriend who is a regular human, and very strange powers that he uses with confidence. We’ll get more on Rex and his attitude when he’s not defending his child in desperate straights. Likewise Supergirl is there to show us why Krypto is “not a very good dog” (but we love him anyways), and to both contrast Superman and to give us a taste of her character.
5. I’m with Siskoid on Tom King and Woman of Tomorrow.
6. Cindy has called out quite correctly the stakes. Lex has kidnapped Rex’s child leading up to his use against Superman as a weapon, but note what Rex was willing to do: sit and use Kryptonite to keep Superman imprisoned, as per the mandate from the federal government. I doubt Rex likes a moment of this, and is why he’s sitting in misery. His first glimmer of hope is when he sees his son – across a chasm in a pocket dimension in which they’re both prisoner. Even if Rex wanted to just burst out and free his son, which he does, then what? It’s when he sees that Lex is just going to keep murdering people in front of him and Superman – and ultimately his child that he is compelled to risk his baby’s life to try and escape. Rex understands that protecting his child is just a short-lived security at that point when Lex so casually murders a complete stranger in front of him. I’m a parent, and there’s a lot of extremes I might go to to protect my own children.
7. And a little more on this. Defense of friends, empathy and loyalty to loved ones is a central theme in the film. Superman is friends with everyone. He knows the street vendor, he saves the squirrel from being crushed. He is mostly worried about Krypto, a dog that isn’t even his because “he’s out there somewhere, and he’s probably very scared”. Loop this in with Superman’s reason for intervening in the war: people we’re going to die. Lead this to his rebuttal to Lois later about the real punk rock. Lois is our jaded audience view, and to an extent the pragmatic world view of the previous film series. Lois says “maybe those people over there should die to prevent consequences here”. But when she’s challenged to see her loved one (Clark) vanished into a gulag, she becomes the icon of inspiration to push other heroes into stepping up. We see that classic golden age Superman come through here in terms of morals: defend the weak, protect the innocent, exalt the virtuous.
8. Okay, this is the best Lois. Hands down. I love Kidder, but I’m with Rob in that I had trouble seeing why “she” was the one for Superman. Hatcher had good chemistry, but she always came off a bit unapproachable. This Lois took the best elements of Kidder, Hatcher, and in particular Delaney and blended them. But I’m going to guess Brosnahan had a lot to do with the success of this portrayal, and a good script. I think we have a movie that knew its main character was Superman, but that its secondary star was Lois who had to carry the middle act.
9. My wife likes Superman a lot as well. Nowhere near the level I do, but she enjoys the character. What she walked out of the theatre talking about: Krypto. Never underestimate the power of a dog in a film.
Okay, closing thoughts. I rank Superman films the way I rank Bond films: I love them all, even the ones I don’t love much. But I know which Bond films are at the top, and which are at the bottom. If you image a tier ranking where every film is “It was Superman, I loved it”, but the broadness of the happy face on the rating shows where it sits on the spectrum, this film sits right beside the original Donner film. I love the Donner film, but it has flaws. I love this film, even though it has flaws. But both are excellent films that have clearly done a world of good for the character, and I think have helped turn the page on the “DC is soooo dark” thing.
Oh, one final idea. This film has so many story notes from All Star Superman, I am hoping that the statement that the Supergirl film will be an “adaptation” of Woman of Tomorrow means like this one it plucks the best bits of the story and ignores the broader tale. I’ll watch it anyways because Supergirl, but I’m now suitably hopeful about the future of this franchise.
I really enjoyed the podcast, but I’m surprised that no one mentioned that there was an Otis Berg. I nice callback to the 1978 Superman movie when Otis wanted a little place for himself.
I thought we had. There was so much to talk about, got lost in the shuffle.
i really liked it
1. MAYBE The best use of superman Robots EVER (THOSE poor guys must be so bored most of the time!)
2 they did’nt hurt Krypto. My brain was going “Kypto is SuperBOY’S Dog every time SuperMAN meets kypto it’s SAD
3 FUN how Lex Luthor is a MODREN RICH evil dude He’s not charning evil he’s kinda a wennie
4 i like that were super threats not realated to the main plot
two (and a half problems)
Not sure i like the parents SURER THICK accents theyre from Kanas NOT 1930s warner brother’s cartoon texas)
SPOLIER TOOK ME OUT OF THE STORY TO KILL the second Banna but lex!
I etheir love or hate (can’t decide) SOMEBODY Gave SUPERMAN a favorte music?! He hears EVERYTHING! and there’s music on other planets. im sure as heck not gonna descide what he likes! i get night sweats figuring who REALLY Belongs in the Rock’nroll hall of fame
Awesome episode and review of the movie! I’ve always been a big Superman fan and had high hopes for this movie. I have to agree with Ryan though in that I liked it, but I didn’t love it as much as the original Donner/Reeve movies. Unfortunately, I have an over analytic brain that kept pointing out plot holes and nitpicks. I do agree that it feels like a comic book on screen and was pure fun to watch, and I think Corenswet, Brosnahan, and Hoult all delivered excellent performances. I do think Gunn did a good job with the characters and story, so I’m optimistic about the future installments. But some of my biggest issues with the film are:
1. I’m assuming that the Fortress has been around for all three years that Superman has been operating. So why is it that, with all of it’s advanced technology (it has fully autonomous robots!) they can’t restore the corrupted video, but the nanites that Lex created can do it in 30 seconds? Is it to lead us to the idea that it wasn’t restored and instead faked by the Engineer to give Lex what he needed? Language and computer forensic experts would need months to confirm the legitimacy of the video, so perhaps it was actually faked and all of the experts (verified by Mr. Terrific) were actually on Lex’ payroll?
2. It’s clear that the uncorrupted part of the message is essential to Superman’s motivation for protecting people, but in my mind, that idea lessens the impact of his upbringing with the Kents. Although, as Chris pointed out, their depiction on screen was more real-life accurate, it seemed like the Kents were cheapened for no real benefit. Yes, they do redeem their value a bit at the end, but I wanted to see more of their influence, because at the end of the day one of the key attributes to Superman’s character is his struggle to be both human and Kryptonian. I think Gunn shows this conflict with other elements in the movie, but it felt too much to me like the Kents were in the back seat.
3. I agree that we didn’t get enough “public persona” Clark Kent. I saw the movie with a friend who said that his favorite parts of the Reeve/Routh portrayals were the Clark Kent scenes at the Daily Planet. I agree that the movie could have used more such scenes, but I also understand why they were not included. But doing so would have helped hone in on Superman’s humanity a bit more in my opinion. And no, I don’t like the use of the hypno glasses, even if it is canon. For one, hypno glasses shouldn’t work on video cameras and computer screens, so any advanced facial recognition software should easily see through them. but my main objection is that it was never JUST the glasses, it was the glasses plus his change in posture, voice, speech, and mannerisms. Clark was sheepish, clumsy, and unsure of himself. Superman is the opposite. Perhaps in our current society that wouldn’t be enough to consistently fool those closest to him (such as Lois, Perry, and Jimmy) but for causal people, it would certainly work. This is why I liked that the Arrowverse had a team of people around Barry, Oliver and Kara that helped conceal their true identities; it made sense that the people closest to them would figure it out, but causal people would not.
One last item. I’m sure you all caught it but I didn’t hear it mentioned. There is the reference to Stagg Industries in the lobby that Superman walks into after hearing Lex’ broadcast about the restored message from his parents. But if I recall correctly, Lex takes credit for creating Metamorpho. So, is this an Easter egg for a future Metamorpho story where perhaps LuthorCorp collaborated with Stagg Industries to create Metamorpho? And since baby Joey seems to be about a year old, that would have to mean that Metamorpho has been around for about 2 years, so there certainly seems to be an opportunity for a future TV series that could fill in his backstory. What do you think?
Great episode, folks!
I agree that the new Superman movie is delightful and is an instant favorite.
I am with Cindy on the view of Metamorpho. While he is often portrayed as a sarcastic adventurer, he does have his fair share of “This Man, This Monster” style stories where he is filled with self-loathing. Like Cindy, I think the movie had him in this place to underscore a parent’s love, but they do tip their cap to a lighter moment in the end, which hints at his more upbeat persona.
Loved the movie. Loved the episode!
Hi friends! I’ve waited long enough, now I need to unload. I’m glad I saw the movie. I’m more glad that my daughter convinced me to go with her! However, there were many things that bugged me as I watched it, and even more that bugged me afterward. I knew I wasn’t going to love it, because I don’t enjoy contemporary action movies. They are too loud. They revel in destruction and violence with little if any consequences. They are directed with frenetic, kinetic camera work to look like a video game. I was sick of the 360 degree shot back when Branagh directed Hamlet! (Hi, Siskoid!) I have also never liked that Smallville is in Kansas or that Ma and Pa Kent are still alive. The previews also put me off. Too loud. Too long. Too many guns. There were some thing that I did like (the casting, many secondary characters), but that things I didn’t like really irk me. Especially number 7.
1. I disagree with Rob. This movie had many similarities to the 1978 film. From the use of the J. Williams score, to those stupid crystals, to a character named Miss Teschmacher, to an abandoned train station as a headquarters, to the rift in the ground at the climax of the film, the Donner movie feels like the source material.
2. I don’t like that James Gunn is a “flat-earther.” The is the only explanation when it is summertime in Metropolis and the sun is shining in Antarctica. Also, when it is daytime in Metropolis and daytime across the world where the war is happening at the climax.
3. I hate that Lex Luthor is an equal opportunity employer. Also, why are there pencils? Should’ve been a bunch of notepads around, too.
4. Superman gets beat up the entire movie and doesn’t save the day.
5. Clark has no response to Lois’ questions/accusations. As I was sitting in the cinema, I came up with better responses. “Gee, Lois, that time you told me there was a bomb in the Schwartz building, I didn’t take the time to get a judge to issue a warrant, then ask the property owner if I could access the building, then get permission from all the tenants to enter and search for the bomb, then ask the manufacturer of the bomb to remove the device. I just got rid of the bomb before it could explode.” For a more personal dig, maybe Lois was tied to the table where the bomb was.
6. Why does he walk into the “boom tube.?” So, he can be tripped by Ultra Man. Why the hell is he walking? He defies gravity! He can’t get tripped! Why is Supergirl walking into the Fortress? Why is Krypto running? And dragging Superman across the ice? Come on! Even just flying around vertically a few inches off the floor would have been interesting/funny/cool.
7. Hollywood, and too often DC Comics, portrays Superman as not smart. I really hate this. The encounters with Ultra-Bizarro were nothing but punchy-punchy. Smart Superman could have used his vision and hearing powers to inspect; a.) what the wrappings are made of b.) what electronics are in them c.) how to disable them. Smart Superman can see beyond visible light. Not just X-rays, but he can see infra-red, ultra-violet, and radio waves. Ultra-Mummy was constantly receiving and transmitting via radio waves. Smart Superman could use super-speed and fly up, over, and under Ultra-Stooge and grab him by the ankles and fly him around to try and disorient him.
7a. The Big Monster. This REALLY bugged me. This was an excuse for excessive violence. I wanted so much to see Justice League brains and compassion. Let’s not even call it a monster, or a kaiju. Let’s call it a puppy from another world. Superman was keeping the big puppy off balance when the Justice Gang shows up. Instead of killing it, Superman could tell Mr. Teriffic to instruct Green Lantern to create a fulcrum and lever. He could ask Hawkgirl for her Nth metal. After attaching the Nth metal to the base of the big puppy’s tail, GL uses his large green lever to propel the big puppy into the sky where Superman can use that momentum to fly him way up into Canada to temporarily put him in a bog where the big puppy can’t escape, hurt himself, or others. Teamwork, justice, fair play. Instead, they kill the big puppy.
7b. Even if only, when Lois asked Mr. Teriffic about tracking his friends with his “trackers” in their bloodstream, he had responded, “It was Superman’s idea,” we could have seen Superman using his brain and putting a plan into action.
7c. I would have liked to see Superman confront Luthor without losing his temper. Entering his office, saying he has an appointment, then at super-speed grabbing a pencil (establish the pencils!) and writing in Luthor’s secretary’s appointment book. He walks in (maybe a foot off the floor) and asks about the dog, etc. Then Superman could “notice” a violation of a building code, and remove a couple of those huge window panes from the exterior wall of Luthor’s office, and just leave them there for Lex. Something like that. Something clever, cunning, or cute. Luthor already hates him. Let Superman have the upper hand for once.
Superman is no dope. He does the right thing always. He is kind and compassionate. He is humble and modest. These qualities can be possessed by smart people, even super-people.
I saw a post attributed to James Gunn that showed a drawing of Superman Luthor in his Super-Powers Battle suit, announcing the next film. In my imaginary storyboard, Superman sees Luthor approaching him, because Luthor, even in a battle-suit, is much slower than a speeding bullet. “A little heat vision there to throw off his stabilizers. A little super-cold breath there to disable his fuel supply. And a cape wrapped around his head while I remove his boots at super-speed, then off to jail.” 110 minutes of build-up, and a 45 second fight scene. Because, ENOUGH LEX LUTHOR!