Film & Water #42 – Captain America: Civil War

THE FILM & WATER PODCAST

Episode 42 – CAPTAIN AMERICA: CIVIL WAR

Rob welcomes fellow Fire and Water Network all-stars Ryan Daly and Chris Franklin to discuss the brand-new blockbuster CAPTAIN AMERICA: CIVIL WAR!

SPOILERS START AT 21:30

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22 responses to “Film & Water #42 – Captain America: Civil War

  1. At about the 13:55 mark in the episode, Chris asked what other movie franchises kept the same writer for three movies. I distinctly remember thinking and speaking: “Godfather”, and I was surprised when we recorded that Rob didn’t respond to that at all and Chris just seemed to gloss over it like he didn’t understand me. Well, now I understand why they reacted that way, because listening to audio at 14:02 it sounds like I said “cow chunk” or something. What the hell was that?!

    1. I didn’t understand you. Ultron took over Skype in that instance. And who created Ultron? Tony Frickin’ Stark!!!

      Chris

      1. I generally don’t listen to my guests when they talk, it comes from years of co-hosting with other podcasters who shall remain nameless.

  2. The only thing I would take issue with is the comment about Black Panther not having much to do, since I think he was the movie’s theme made manifest, and I was frankly surprised and impressed at how much this was his story. Like Zemo, like Stark, he is out for revenge, but he meets the Iron Man and Cap positions in the middle, and manages to resolve what neither other “Revenger” could. He starts out as a third “spoiler” element, that is on neither side, but through grace and nobility, completes his arc. Beautiful.

    Other great bits you didn’t have time to cover:
    -Redwing. That was a great way to bring Falcon’s sidekick into it and it got some very cool moments.
    -I love Cap so MUCH, and for me, simple stuff like his kicking a truck into a mercenary, or keeping a helicopter from flying away with his arms, gave me so much joy. The fighting was of a very high standard generally.
    -Marisa Tomei as Aunt May, controversial casting? It took me off-guard at first, but the more I think about it, the more I like it. Not just because I like that actress, but because Spidey is younger too, and because while Tomei is by no means a “senior”, there are more stages of aging than a-day-away-from-hospital. And since we’ve already seen two Spider-casts in the past 15 years, I very much want to see something different from the third.

    But like you said, extremely well balanced, and despite all the characters, didn’t feel bloated the way Age of Ultron did, and while there was levity, it didn’t distract from the seriousness the way it did in that film.

    1. I LOVE how Cap fights in these films. Kirby once described Cap as a “pinball” bouncing between objects, and in every film, even the Avengers movies, that’s what we’ve gotten.

      It makes a lot more sense for Peter’s aunt to be in her 40s or 50s. As old as May was portrayed in the early comics, she should have been his great aunt.

      There were so many other things I wish I had thought to bring up, but I had a great time jawing about this movie like a 10 year old fanboy with these guys. It just extended the fun of the film.

      Chris

      1. My only problem with the portrayal of Cap is his strength level. I know it’s grown in the comics; but, kicking vehicles and holding helicopters down is way beyond what Simon & Kirby created, as is jumping out of high altitude aircraft without a parachute. He went from peak human ability to superhuman over the course of a decade and I find it a bit too much (he also went from looking like an acrobat to a steroided wrestler). To me, that was a sign that the writers involved couldn’t work out how to use his existing power levels and abilities. I will say that the films have mostly kept that in check.

        1. Yeah, I was looking at my old OHOTMUs this weekend, and there is no mention of Cap having superhuman strength. That is indeed, a fairly new addition to the character, but I’m glad they did it, because I feel the character would get lost among these films without it, and audiences may not be able to buy what he can do without it.

          Chris

          1. Cap is the optimal human being. If he’s just a degree stronger, faster, tougher that any human has ever been, it works for me. I don’t think the movies have pushed it too far in that sense.

  3. Also, I like that despite the fact Marvel Studios doesn’t have the rights to Willy Lumpkin, they still use Stan Lee as such.

  4. Except that being able to counteract the lifting power of a modern helicopter is well beyond a human peak, as is surviving a freefall from an aircarft. I go along with it, since that seems to be art of what they’ve pulled from The Ultimates and the films have their own continuity.

    I’m still not sure about how I feel about Steve Rogers actually being made a captain, in the Army. i think he should have had to start as a lieutenant and work his way up. I’ve heard of “90 day wonders” but that’s a heck of a jump. :)

  5. Sounds like a great movie, which means I have another long wait for the dvd (complicated). I still haven’t seen Ant Man or Avengers 2; so, add another to the list.

    I still want my Dominic Fortune movie (1930s period piece, obviously), though. Well, that and Master of Kung Fu (with the supporting characters and Brynoki!).

    Oh, and It, The Living Colossus. Let’s see someone make that one work.

  6. Thanks for a great podcast with an overabundance of politeness and deference between the participants (the BvS effect).

    While I loved the movie through and through, the more I think about it, it seems that the trickiest part of the scripting was bringing the senior Starks into the story in a natural way. I don’t think this was done successfully.

    It seems unlikely that Tony would want to display his personal therapy to a bunch of random strangers at MIT, but I can see why the storytellers went this route. Firstly it allowed them to show Howard and Maria in the film, making their murder all the more impactful. Second it was a way of showing a point in time without putting ‘1991’ on the screen which would immediately start most moviegoers to connect the dots to the opening Winter Soldier flashback set in that year. Thirdly, it avoided more clunky storytelling tools such as Tony having a nightmare or video footage.

    I wonder if it would have been easier to just have Tony being accused of not knowing loss and snapping “I lost both my parents at once”. Certainly that would have been the likely solution in a film made a few years earlier, or one with a lower budget. Long term, I think people will find this part of the movie the bit that acts as a mental speedbump on an otherwise smooth and thrilling ride.

    1. I can see Tony airing his angst to a bunch of strangers at MIT. While he has issues connecting to people one-on-one (like Pepper, for instance), he has no problems just blurting out his issues in public, going all the way back to “I am Iron Man”.

      Maybe it’s spoiled rich-boy syndrome, but Tony seems to be the kind of guy who thinks he’s the only person on the planet with problems. When others problems finally slap him upside the face, he over-reacts.

      I’m psychoanalyzing Tony Stark WAY too much.

      Chris

  7. By the by, I just read that John Kani is in the film, playing T’Chaka, Black Panther’s father. He’s an excellent actor (probably best known as Jessie, the young black mercenary in The Wild Geese) and is noted for his work in anti-apartheid theater in South Africa, along with Winston Ntshona (who played Limbani in The Wild Geese). I hope he will be seen, in flashback, in the Back Panther film.

    1. Kani’s role as T’Chaka is small but impressive. I would be all for seeing him return in some kind of flashback in BLACK PANTHER.

  8. First I want to start off by saying I enjoy the movie. However, in my opinon, this movie is a long way from being the best Marvel. All the characters nations were great except for Iron Man. Stark is always shown as such a smart character but yet for some reason in this movie he doesn’t listen to his best friend, Captain America, when he tells him that the Winter Soldier is not to blame. Non Iron Man 3 he goes through this long computer-generated investigation of the scene to figure out who are where the bad guy is but in this movie he just said nope. And this is the most over bloated plot. Baron Zemo would actually get the same results out of just publishing the Stark family home video. Why was all the other stuff in the movie necessary. It just does not make any sense and does not follow. And , this is a personal issue and I always criticize people for bringing it in but, I just can’t buy any Baron Zemo character that’s not trying to take over the world that’s what he does in the comics that’s who he is and this to me was just extremely disappointing. I did enjoy most of the movie and the fight scenes for great except for the first 15 minutes. I don’t like shaky cam. This movie reminds me a lot of another movie where heroes are fighting Heroes this here and I think it probably pretty much the same. Of course I like that one too so there you go.

  9. Great episode! Finally saw the movie last night. Here is my unpopular opinion…

    Tony was right about the Accords. Yup. Sure everyone has an agenda, but at the end of the day, the Accords were the right next step. Check yourself before someone else does. Black Widow actually had the best perspective of anyone in the film.

    1. Yeah, but they wouldn’t be checking themselves. World leaders with agendas would be checking them…and choosing when and where to send them…and when not to. Which was Cap’s point.

      Plus, why wasn’t Tony under house arrest? Didn’t he create Ultron…hence the very accords he’s pushing for?

      Chris

  10. My boys and I already did a 2+ hour podcast on this ourselves, but you guys managed to touch on so much stuff we missed that I guess the movie rated over three hours of total fanboy commentary.

    Some minor additional points:

    Black Panther can outrun cars. The least convincing aspect of the movie was how Cap & Bucky managed to evade him on foot as long as they did. I guess it was the time he took changing into his costume that gave Bucky a decent head start.

    The physics on this movie were video game unbelievable. The motorcycle heist was to me the pinnacle of that.

    I listened to Ryan’s threequel comment about five times in my car and understood what he was saying zero times. Perhaps inspired by the physics in this movie, I’m reminded that the Resident Evil hexalogy of films were each and every one authored by none other than one Paul W. S. Anderson esquire. But the first one is still the best/worst (though the third one is better than the second. They’re all better than the second one.)

    Cap is unmistakably superhuman in the movies, but his primary alterations are just mild superhuman strength and durability that includes shaking off laser blasts. I think he needs the power amp on film to avoid competing with Black Widow and Hawkeye, the “humans” on the team. Especially now that Daredevil’s on TV and Iron Fist is coming, I think the increase better legitimizes him as an Avenger instead of just being placed above “street level” by being around earlier.

    The Stan the Skrull idea was very clever. The next time someone takes a pass at the Fantastic Four, they could really use some Skrulls around. Or anybody but Faux Doom III.

    It was funny to hear everyone on the podcast was Team Cap, and seemingly all favored Cap in general, Illegal Machine and my girlfriend are Iron Man fans, and like Shag were on his team, thinking Cap was the dirty dealing jerk of the movie.

  11. Just caught the movie today so I haven’t listened to this episode yet. Overall, I enjoyed the film despite some reservations. One main flaw for me is that the film doesn’t stand on its own as Disney/Marvel expects everyone in the audience to have seen nearly a dozen other films to fully grasp all the characters and context. The Marvel movies are more like episodic TV episodes than their own films. The effect, to me, is that Cap gets a bit lost in his own story. For example, what was the point of having Stark recruit Peter Parker (other than blatant corporate synergy)? I thought Spidey was great but where was the justification of Stark needing to bring this newly-minted teen hero on board? I also thought this was another Marvel film with a weak villain. The actor was good ( and I thought he was great in Rush opposite Hemsworth), but generally he was “meh.” I’ve generally like the Cap franchise more than the others coming from the Mouse House. The Thor & Iron Man movies are fun but instantly forgettable & Avengers 2 was mediocre. I thought Civil War was in the top tier of the Marvel movies despite these misgivings.

  12. Wow guys. Another great ep. It was great bringing in Ryan and Chris. So yeah WOW what a great movie. I’m totally in the same mind set as you guys, possibly the best Marvel movie so far. Like so many other people have pointed out, this is the third attempt at Spider-man in a very short amount of time and I can;t believe he is getting so many do-overs BUT this version was totally worth it! They finally got it right!!!!! I was a little thrown off by the Marisa Tomei casting, not because she isn’t a great actress or anything, I just have problems with Aunt May being a sex symbol or as Shag would say “totally hot”. I lol’d with Rob’s comments about Stark’s behaviour was like having Shag in the movie. Who knows maybe the screen writers are fans of the FW Network!!

    Black Panther was great from top to bottom, the casting, the look, script and the outcome. I was a little surprised to see him chasing down cars on foot as well but like Chris said “I don’t care.” It looked awesome. And that touches on Cap’s strength issues. I think he is a little supercharged but it seems to fit the path they have chosen for these movies and doesn’t feel out of place or too over done.

    This movie did a great job of bringing the most characters we have seen in a movie at one and still giving each character their own moments without feeling like anyone was left behind, even Zemo. I would have liked some more Vision simply because Paul Bettany does a GREAT job. I don’t think Black Panther not having much to do was the case. The same with Zemo that for this story his motivations were very specific so they didn’t need a lot of time or focus, you knew what they were doing and why. I was a little worried that Black Panther was too easily lead down the revenge path when in the comics he is far more of a thinker to let that happen and was relieved with his character’s evolution by the end. Like Rob said, each time I was like “Oh no they messed this up” the screen writers like “No, no we got you.” Dale Russel makes a comment above like this but concerning Iron Man. But for me it’s easier to see Tony making the “emotional, irrational reaction”. But I think by the end, reading Cap’s letter he can see his mistakes.

    Which brings me to slightly a contradictory point, I was and still am Team Iron Man. And the difference between the comic and the movie is that in this case its presented as though Iron Man made the “wrong” choice. It might be because this is a Capt America movie or it just works better on the screen. And my conflict about the issue might be because I’m blurring the lines of Superhero fantasy with reality. But this isn’t reality. This is a superhero movie. The good guys will always be the good guys. So you CAN have that blind faith. (Sorry to bring it up) And I think that is the fundamental flaw Mr Snyder had with BvS. CA: CW does a far better job of exploring these themes, making the viewer think about these issues but also letting the superheros be superheros!!

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