JLI Podcast #47 – Justice League America #47 & Justice League Europe #23

Patrick Pence joins The Irredeemable Shag to chat about Justice League America #47! General Glory has returned to the delight of Guy Gardner and to the surprise of everyone else! Then Nathan Archer stops by to discuss Justice League Europe #23! The secret identity and origin of Crimson Fox is revealed! Finally, we wrap up with YOUR listener feedback!

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21 responses to “JLI Podcast #47 – Justice League America #47 & Justice League Europe #23

  1. Another great episode, another instance of my selective amnesia at work. I had completely forgotten about the (rather long, as mentioned) Shilo interlude in this issue. I actually believe that in hindsight I never actually went back and re read the issues, and yeah, I’m still not a fan but they are much better than my recall.
    Also, at the time not a fan and not really into the Captain America lore, so now all the “man out of time” bits work so much better for me.
    Regarding the facial expressions, I do believe this is actually editorial direction: once the acting became such a central point of the title, it makes sense that they would be asked from all the Maguire follow-ups.
    As for High father curls … boy, this podcast is not rated G any longer.

    JLE 23 is such a favorite for me, I cannot more than side with Nathan on everything (including Sears’ ability to highlight beefcake as much as cheesecake). It’s not usual I nod along to a podcast such as this just agreeing with everything and going “yes, yes, and yes to that too”.
    Now that you mention Sonar, it would have made perfect sense, since he was an already stablished European baddie. Actually GJ used him in the Elongated Man mini (which I wonder if it’ll be the subject of a Meanwhile episode).

  2. Great episode Shag. I actually liked General Glory back in the day because he wasn’t like the other EXTREME heroes of the time
    But I never understood Crimson Fox. She was neither crimson nor did she look like a fox. Copperhead indeed

  3. When discussing Crimson Fox, you guys noted she has “crimson” in her name, but not anywhere in her costume. This got me to thinking…are there other superheroes who have a particular color in their name, but not on their costume? There’s Blue Raja from Mystery Men. And also…another one, who is also a member of JLE…Silver Sorceress! I never realized that the JLE had two characters with this rather unique characteristic on the team at the same time! And they both wear shades of brown, too! JLE may be the only superhero team in comics history with two people like this. Weird!

    Your discussions about those magazines that mimicked real-life magazines but were full of in-universe ads and articles took me down memory lane! I’d forgotten about that “Death of Superman” issue of Newstime. Marvel also had a magazine that they released at least three years in a row called…Marvel. The covers looked like issues of Time magazine, and I remember the interiors being immensely entertaining. I wish I still had them! 🙁

    The only other superhero I can think of who is really two different people sharing an identity is Turbo from the New Warriors…the old Torpedo suit was shared by two young folks named Mickey and Mike. But they weren’t twins…they weren’t even siblings…and no one was going to mistake them for each other.

    Your discussion of Orion and Lightray being on the JLI and not remembering it later is spot on. No one remembers these guys were on the team. I think even fewer people remember Shiloh Norman aka Mister Miracle II was on the team, too. So brief and so little to do.

  4. Y’know thinking about it I get why if you were reading along with the JLA General Glory might not resonate with old fans. He really takes all the air out of the room meaning the other characters, the ones people turn up every month to follow. Really only J’onn comes out of this, the others just seem to be there to drive the story along.

    And it might be different if you followed him from the Mister Miracle series, but I really don’t like Shilo here. Yes he’s had a challenging day but all he seems to do here is moan and sulk, we’ll see if he gets better as they go along.

    1. For once I really don’t want to talk about Kara here, because in JLE she’s just the worse! Maybe it’s why she’s had no live-action appearances whilst almost everyone else has had one! Wally isn’t much better, but a least it’s only a panel or so and then he’s done. It’s weird as Pee Gee is the one that notices the fresh soil at the factory, so I’m not sure what the writer is doing here with the character.

      This is my first time reading this so the reveal was somewhat of a surprise to me, though I picked up a few clues from previous comments from Shag. And I agree it’s a pretty solid comic because of this reveal. I’m kind of curious if anyone has gone back and worked out in what issue which sister appeared, though I agree it’s probably something they did to cover a scripting error.

  5. Impressive podcast most impresses. The cover looks cool. Kind of interesting thing the heroes in three-point perspective. Anginal Gloria kind of has a pose that works well for him. Especially since they have the other heroes looking as grim dark as possible. The safe bet was funny. Still I think Mr. miracle should’ve had his protégé better at this track. If you going to practice in public in his costume no less. Still be bit where blue beetle and again saving is kind of cool. That general showing he has control over guy is kind of funny. The bit where the other spy makes a bomb in the case this destroys his secret base. Is kind of funny. The general being good at photo apps was also kind of funny. Moving on to justice league Europe The cover that doubles up as a magazine is kind of a cool idea. And pose works for Crimson Fox. The bit with Wally and Kilawago works well enough. Seeing him is just the inventor guy or just an engineer is interesting. Though strange having seen him in the Green Lantern book as one of the Green Lanterns. While it is going into business mode is kind of funny. I think of been able to live with it myself. Sorry to hear that you have found your self slipping into that.

    Actually the whole policing of secret identities things in comic books have even been done so far back as early issues of the Huntress. Well her backup issues in wonder woman. As written by Paul Lovett’s. In those issues it turned out the thinker was controlling the district attorney whom at the time was dating the Huntress. Who started up the problems of the government trying to interfere with superheroes operating in Gotham. Still this is also an earlier version of. Both of them predating Civil War by quite a few years. The actions of Catherine and And Adam are definitely hinting at their romance going further. Kind of a weird choice for Crimson Fox to start flirting with him now. And how badly they have mangled Wally’s personality in this comic. You are both right the Crimson Fox and To both have nice butts as does Wally, as does Power girl. Sad here that both versions of the Fox die later. Though interesting to hear Vivian ended up dating metamorpho for a bit.

    Not sure if I would call that cheating or an afair since after all Metamorpho and his wife had pretty much split. They had a kid together but it seems like less issue they had decided not to stay together. Well how many issues go it was when we last saw them. The origin of the Crimson Fox is decent enough. Those finding out the translation of the bad guy from this issue’s real name is kind of funny considering what he did for a living. While technically still in the next issue but still. Not sure why Java is angry at red rocket. Since he seems to be one of the nicest people in this group. Maybe Java is just a jerk. The big giant worm at the end is decent enough of form for the villain. With the big group of cultists worshiping the giant tuning fork. Or whatever they’re doing. Though that is three different places the worm can of came from. Doon, Beetlejuice, or tremors. For whatever reason giant worms are in at that point in time. This was a fun enough issue. I did look up some clips of Crimson Fox on YouTube. You are both right that costume was terrible. Somehow even worse than this one. I didn’t think that was possible. Can’t wait till the next podcast.

    1. I’m legally obliged at this point to mention that Power Girl was in those issues, which almost explains her hesitancy about any kind of registration, and seemed pretty miffed that the DA and Helenna have feelings for each other! (be still my shipping heart 😀 )

      1. That exact storyline was recently covered on the Wright On Network’s Huntress Podcast by AJ Wright, Diane, and recent JLI-Bwah-hah-hah-Podcast guest Laurel! And of course, I was reading along with them. (podcast plug, achieved)

  6. I think you and Patrick touched on something that made me move on from this version of JLA: The scenes in this issue that seem very much just like random sitcom moments. Where characters are just kind of dropped into situations for laughs, like the whole Mister Miracle thing, that have no bearing on the overall storyline. Combine that with a storyline I personally felt was too broad, and I lose interest. Maybe I need to give these issues another try, and see if I still feel that way.

    I do like the cover for JLE. As Nathan pointed out, it’s very clever and well done, especially to another graphic designer like myself. I don’t care for Crimson Fox’s brown costume, though. When it was colored as more of a deep red, her name made sense. The costume itself, eh, I never really cared for it. Sears handles it best, for sure, but it definitely reads more “snake” than “fox”. Maybe something more akin to Vixen’s very earliest costume (“A Vixen is a lady fox!”), in hues of red would have worked? Of course that kind of reads like a cutrate Catwoman too, so not sure.

    Sears of course knows how to draw very attractive people, but I think even he’s pushing the anatomy of the Fox on page 8. When she’s bent over…where are her organs? No one has a waist THAT thin, especially bent over like that! It’s inhuman!

    I had no idea her and Rex had a thing later. And I totally forgot she was on Powerless, because I’ve only watched the Adam West episode of that show, for obvious reasons. I need to give it a shot. Her costume…yeah, not great. But the CW has done worse!

  7. Zat ineffable invocation of ze loquacious, “yadda yadda yadda,” appears both in ze cartoon episode zat ze Franklins covered and also in ze JLA book.
    …Man, zis year’s JLMay theme is weirder zan I was expecting. I like it!

  8. I admit, I’m a General Glory apologist and always enjoyed his appearances, so it does my heart good to hear Shagg coming around on this reading of the story. Sure, sensibilities may have changed, or the criticisms back then may have been more of an influence, or maybe he wasn’t EXTREEEEME enough for the time. But there’s nothing wrong with revisiting older stories and having a different take: good or bad. Welcome aboard the Glory Train! (Sorry, got carried away for a sec.)

    Ah, the Truth About Crimson Fox. At least, I think that’s what the story’s called. I *have* been reading a lot of Outsiders lately, and that’s how they title these kinds of stories. Back in the day, I thought the twin angle was nicely unique, and gotta say, I think Fox is even more fetching in the costume when she takes the hood off. I actually like the design of her hood, but yeah, I like seeing her face and how she puts her hair up. Wowza! That Bart Sears!

    Twins sharing an identity. I should know of more, but maybe I’m equating it to Prince and the Pauper stories, where it’s a one-time gimmick, not a recurring one. But I do remember: the Triggers Twins, Brother Voodoo (Daniel and Jericho Drumm although one is dead), and the triplets who were the Joker from DC’s Tangent line. There’s gotta be more than that, right?

    You know, someone has to stop asking questions like “I wonder if/when this character will return? Do they ever come back to this plot point?” Because I know these stories far too well and have to put clothespins on my fingers when writing feedback so I don’t give those things away! It works, because it’s like trying to type with Fox’s claws. Also, ow.

    Final note: Nathan wins the podcast for “Captain Atom is shiny in all the right places.” BHH! (That’s Bwah-Hah-Hah. We need to make that a thing.) Thanks for another great episode!

    1. Oh almost forgot! “Highfather’s curls”? Gosh, that could mean almost anything. His chest hair. His handwriting. The name of his pet poodle. Or as said in Superman 2, “It’s what the old Cape Cannaveral guys called a comet with an east-west trajectory.” Or most likely, bicep curls when Highfather is pumping iron. Because he GETS THOSE REPS!

  9. Great episode! It’s neat that you got to record with your real friends. I thought it was funny that they didn’t seem to be up on certain things that were happening (Lightray and Orion being on the team, Java’s arms having melted, etc.). I know they’re fans and have read issues and have nostalgia, I’m just pointing out that they might not be listening to your show like your virtual friends! (at least not caught up). This is in no way a complaint or slight on the episode, I really enjoyed them as guests, I just thought you might want to give them some grief, as friends do. The ending bit at your house (embassy?) was also a lot of fun!

  10. Thanks for another fantastic show with, as ever, a couple of top notch guest types.

    As regards Justice league of America 47, Shagg, you said that on the splash page there’s ‘a General Glory created by’ credit… It actually says ‘secreted by’. Was Bob Lappan having a dyslexic day?

    It seems odd that J’onn would insist General Glory was a comic book character. I know that was the cover story, but you might think the JL would have access to government metahuman files.

    I always feel guilty that I don’t find Shilo Norman at all compelling. He’s just never clicked for me.

    I just don’t get why Linda Medley’s art is at all controversial on this podcast, I love it, you can see the Giffen breakdowns at times, and they look good, but I like it even more when Medley’s line is stronger. Her work is crisp and the people nicely animated.

    Moving onto JLE #23, I never found Crimson Fox interesting until this issue, the pheromone-flinging sisters had great chemistry – no gag intended. I truly hate the way they were both horribly killed. I cheered at the reference to Copperhead, that’s what I always thought too… that cowl headpiece thingie was so stupid, clunky and peripheral vision-killing. I’ve just asked JM DeMatteis on Twitter about her name and outfit, but it turns out he never really wrote her after her first appearance, on TV in JLE 6, so doesn’t know!

    Funnily enough, two of the three founders of Revlon were actually named Revson.

    Catherine’s hair is ridiculous, to have a crown that high she’d have to have a Hector Hammond-sized head… Starfire used to have the same problem.

    What the heck was that line from Captain Atom about the difficulty of getting ice cubes in English restaurants? We do actually have fridges. If he’s having that many problems, take Tora along!

    How come there was no outrage on the show about the idea of Crimson Fox using her pheromones to nab Captain Shiny Butt? It’s no better than Max getting Huntress on the team with a nosebleed.

    Incidentally, Cholmondely’ is pronounced ‘Chumly’ (if ‘Featherstonehaugh’ comes up, that’s ‘Fanshaw’. Which is, obviously, mad).

  11. Crimson Fox doesn’t make sense as a name (but the JLE is all about that it seems, remember Silver Sorceress?), but her name is actually French, right? La Renarde Rousse literally translates as Red-Headed Vixen. Of course Vixen is already taken, so the male “Fox” is used, and Red-Headed is clunky, “Ginger” sounds weird, and just “Red” has the same problem in terms of costume, though you’d probably be quicker to make it the connection with her hair color than the “not at all a natural hair color” Crimson.

    So TWO of your fellow role-players on the same show, Shag? For when the attendant Let’s Roll or Once Upon a Geek equivalent?

    1. As for the Medieval Italian, I’ve read all of Dante’s Divine Comedy (in Dorothy Sayers’ superior English-language translation), and Canto means “Song”. The famous lines open the epic allegorical poem with Dante in the dark wood before he meets his guide through the afterlife (his idol, the Roman poet Virgil), starting with Hell (Inferno), the gate of which is topped by the even more famous “Abandon all hope…” sign.

  12. It’s your Pacific Canadian delegate here, traipsing through the back woods with Sasquatch (the Bigfoot creature, not the Alpha Flight member) so I am a little late in commentating. This show just keeps getting better and better! What a treat to have actual friends on the podcast talking about these fun issues. Everyone had great insights and enjoyable stories to tell. I find listening to this show makes me feel like I’m part of this great circle of friends that bonds over some fun comics.

    JLA – As a Pacific Canadian delegate, I’m not too huge on the American rah-rah of Captain America so I love General Glory and this goofy pastiche of patriotic heroes. The entire banter with “Skipper” and “little buddy” is fantastic. It finally made me not hate Guy Gardner so much and made me see him in a different light. And I’m enjoying seeing the progression of Linda Medley’s art style. Like Shag mentioned, the sequence with Beetle, Ice, and Shilo has some great facial acting in it.

    JLE – As mentioned before, I was not really paying attention to JLE at this point. It just feels like almost everyone has been turned into a two-dimensional character…… well, they ARE two-dimensional characters because they are in a comic book, but you know what I mean! The characterization of Kara is getting really bad at this point. It’s like she’s been turned into a bad stereotype of “angry feminist”. And Wally as “jokey sleazeball” isn’t fun to read either. It’s not that there isn’t a good story there, but the characterizations just pull me right out of it. Having said all that, it was fun to hear everyone discuss the Crimson Fox’s origin. I agree with everyone about the name/costume difference but I’d even go one further. Why does she have those ridiculous long claws? Do foxes have long claws like that? Though, thanks to Siskoid for the meaning of the name in French, I guess this is just a name that gets lost in translation?

    I neve stop having fun with this show whether I enjoyed the comic at the time or not. You guys make me want to go back and read (or track down) these issues all over again. Well done and keep up the great work!

  13. I was recently reading Justice League Quarterly 10 (far removed from these issues, but stay with me) and came across a moment that would tickle Patrick’s fancy. In the Blue Beetle backup story “When Titans Date” by Mark Waid and Ty Templeton, there is a moment where Wally West says “These pretzels are making me thirsty,” which is a reference to Seinfeld season 3 episode “The Alternate Side” where that same line was repeated multiple times on the show.

    I don’t expect Bwa-Ha-Ha Podcast to venture so far from the Giffen/DeMatteis era, but you and especially Patrick might be amused at Mark Waid lifting a joke from Seinfeld so early in his comics writing career.

  14. Martian Manhuntter: Nice try Max, but you can’t sneak past a telepath, Besides, what’s this about turning the league into an inefficient group that I’m reading in your mind?

  15. Irish Embassy calling – apologies for the late reply however, the Irish Embassy has mysteriously disappeared – almost as if giant worms have come from the ground to destroy…….oh no, wait, it’s over there, phew!

    I enjoyed both issues – count me in the camp of really enjoying the introduction of General Glory and his first outing with the League was a resounding success.

    The Justice League Europe episode was very good as well and the mystery of Crimson Fox was a nice reveal. It is good to see Stagg/Java as recurring characters in the book and the reveal of the Giant Worm at the end was a decent cliff-hanger, setting up the next issue.

    Two points on Constance’s assistant – one, he was called initially Robert by Constance and later as Mr. LeRose – a nod to colorist Bob Le Rose, maybe? And two, I vaguely recall reading in the first edition of the DC Comics Encyclopaedia in 2004 that in the Crimson Fox entry, they said Robert Le Rose took on the mantle of Crimson Fox after the deaths of Constance and Vivian. This was definitely non-canon as there is no reference to this when the new Crimson Fox emerged in Green Lantern. As I recall, there was a few errors in that encyclopaedia anyway.

    Looking forward to the episode on KLQ2 – very G’nort heavy as I recall!

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