JLI Podcast – Meanwhile… JLA Annual #5 and JLE Annual #2 (1991)

Armageddon 2001 strikes the Justice League! Waverider explores possible futures for Leaguers in both America & Europe, but why does Captain Atom seem so important to the proceedings? Jon Wilson joins The Irredeemable Shag to chat about Justice League America Annual #5, and Clinton Robison on Justice League Europe Annual #2! We discuss the League's possible futures, plus a veritable who's who of JLI artists! Finally, we wrap up with YOUR listener feedback!

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60 responses to “JLI Podcast – Meanwhile… JLA Annual #5 and JLE Annual #2 (1991)

  1. So, I didn’t post a ONE PUNCH message last month and now I’m publicly shamed. Ok, I get it…

    Anyway, great episode (albeit a little on the long side, yeah) and, no shade to Clinton, but I’m a huge fan of Jon, and also, he got to cover the best of the two annuals (I do agree with Shagg’s rant in general).

    JLA is a great issue, and as mentioned, it clicks so much better once you get the continued storyline bit. And boy, the art…And yeah, it’s nice how much it continues the story from the main book(s). The Ted and Tora shaming, yeah, well, it was 30 years ago, and it was a “jokes” book, but we would be rolling our eyes at mother in law jokes as well.

    JLE… is not good. The conceit does not work, and other than Curt Swan and Giffen’s art, I never felt any need to revisit this, specially since the Big Plot Revelation was cancelled before it happened. In the end it does seem like a full fill-in issue to set up the last page, and we know how that went…
    Re reading though, Power Girl with an Ernie haircut did make me laugh.

    One thing that I hoped you addressed with Clinton (and this might be fodder for a future podcast of some sort) is the similarity of Armageddon 2001 with the almost concurrent Total Chaos story on the Titans books, with I always assumed was just another sign of the special leeway Marv Wolfman got most of the time by having his little isolated playpen that did not play nice with the other DC kids.

    1. Shade! Shade! All the shade!!!!

      Ok, maybe not.

      Total Chaos completely slipped my mind at the time, Gus, but as you said we were already running a little long. Anything Titans seemed to get the most out of Armageddon 2001 after effects that had next to nothing to do with Monarch or Waverider after the annuals. And then three years later Zero Hour eliminated 98% or the Team Titans. Go figure.

      1. I don’t understand the “similarity” to Total Chaos. In my mind, they’re all chapters of the same story. The Team Titans were from a year 2001, almost certainly created specifically for the Armageddon 2001 event. Otherwise, why wouldn’t the Team Titans have been foreshadowed earlier than one month ahead of the annual? Their whole story is that the various teams are on the same mission as Waverider, to travel back in time and alter a tyrant’s future. In fact, after they swapped Captain Atom for Hawk, it reinforced the connection between Monarch and the Titans specifically over other heroes. Monarch wants to destroy metahumans in his future, while Lord Chaos cultivates them in service to his fascism. We later learn ahead of Zero Hour that it was Monarch who formed and secretly commanded the Team Titans, in direct opposition to his established stance in the annuals event, and paralleling Lord Chaos. Therefore, the Hawk who becomes Monarch is actually from Lord Chaos’ future, taught to hate super-heroes under his reign. Monarch travels back in time like Waverider and his own Team Titans to erase Chaos 2001, and overwrite it with Armageddon 2001. The Team Titans are his chronological suicide bombs, deployed to both alter the timeline and self-destruct so that there will be no metahumans in Monarch’s revised timeline. That’s why when the Team Titans timeline is eradicated, so is Monarch, replaced in the Parallax timeline with Extant.

        That, or Marv Wolfmam had crippling writers block and riffed off a current event to do a knock-off of Days of Future Past and The Terminator. One of the two.

        Finally, I agree with Clinton about the Atlantean Power Girl costume. It looks way better than the generic gold & white, which is more of a Legionnaire or Youngblood design. By which I mean something super basic you hack out for a team book when you’re generating a bunch of suits en masse instead of developing fully realized heroes that could carry their own title. What about the second Europe outfit says anything but “I get cold easily without my Kryptonian powers, so I need a nice warm collar.” They took a heroine known for exposed skinned and wrapped her in a Snuggie. Looking for reference for that piece of crap costume, I went to Comicvine, and had to scroll past nearly all of her 1600 images to finally find a single one of that embarrassment. There is alternate future and shorter term gear represented there earlier and to a greater degree, even the Atlantean one. I tended to think that one looked too much like Jim Lee’s redesign of Rogue, but in retrospect it feels more like a Cockrum riff. I definitely prefer the more modern suits that update and improve upon the overly simple original outfit, but pretty much everything is better than the one she brought home from Sears.

  2. Armageddon 2001 was one of those events where, years later, I couldn’t tell you anything about the main storyline. But I loved many of the annuals. Especially these two and their humor.

  3. 1 Superman and BATman HAVE so many futures
    2 AS a hawk and dove fan there’s a BUNCH of problems with hawk as Monach A it’s just stupid b it even (in comic book logic) would make more sense IF dove became monach “My way did’nt work let’s do hawk’s way C DC will never admit HAWK AND DOVE ONLY work if they are sibling of the same sex! I’d strongly perfer brothers BUT they could be sisters.
    3 there need to be more stories where the demon just goes around following Merlin’s orders
    4. you may not like the Heck outfit but there’s something to be said for a confederate getting a new outfit

  4. As I’ve mentioned previously, I left the fold after the first chapter of “The Teasdale Imperative.” Besides thinking that it was a stupid name and not wanting to buy any more issues of Justice League Europe, the book had gotten too dark, and I missed Kevin Maguire. Editorial/Marketing were always pining for the typical comics fan to find a home in JLI, where I bought the book as a break from the prevalent grim & grit of the times. When I wanted that, and I often did, Blue Beetle was not my preferred delivery method. I tossed through Armageddon 2001 #1 at the mall bookstore, but the art, the price tag, and a host of unfamiliar characters had put me right off. I don’t recall if I bought Batman Annual #15 new, but I dug “The Last Batman Story,” and I definitely got New Titans Annual #7 as an avid collector of “Titans Hunt.” Otherwise, I had avoided the annuals, so I have no idea why I randomly selected Justice League America Annual #5 nearly three months before the Titans tie-in. Maybe I’d been intrigued by the announcement of “Breakdowns,” but I really don’t think so, as it seemed to be the other way around, with the annual leading me backj to the series. Possibly, I just flipped through it and found that it looked like fun? Despite being fully cognizant that this was an imaginary future story, it really imprinted upon me as endgame. I mean, how many years have it been since Bea and Oberon were even in the same room, but I still ship it. The book reminded me of what I’d enjoyed about the title, and brought me back for the actual finale.

    The Europe Annual, not so much. Read it some time later. Thought the Hex part was cute. Otherwise forgettable.

    By the way, I withheld my one punch for a month because I’m not your monkey, Shaggggggggggggggggg.

          1. I just wrote a piece on Detective Chimp (for Saturday) and you just said a mouthful. Those 5 letters in chimp-talk translate to a full sentence, maybe two, according to my research.

  5. One thing about the JLE annual is that the time traveling presented an opportunity to close a continuity loophole. DC never explained how Jonah Hex traveled from the 21st Century back to the 19th . But in my head canon, when Metamorpho was picked up in Hex’s time, they brought Hex along so when they went back to the Old West to pick up Crimson Fox, they just dropped off Jonah. And forgive me if I missed it, but I don’t recall anyone commenting about how Hex’s final issue was drawn by Keith Giffen.

  6. Another great show . And I heard ultraverse well that’s just prime !(). Great guest as always . Glad to hear you fan of the trial of the Incredible Hulk movie .
    I’ll throw a few more dare devil stories these are all what if ‘s
    1. What if 35 what if elektra had lived .
    2. What if the world knew daredevil was blind ,
    I can’t remember the number of this issue .
    Here’s a few tv episodes
    The 90’s spider man I think the story line was called sins of the father . That guess star’s daredevil.
    2. And the fantastic four episode a blind man shall lead them .
    Also who would win in a fight daredevil vs the the death defying devil vs rouge prime vs booster gold .

  7. Interesting thing to note: When we get a look at J’onn J’onzz’s future and he’s in the Himalayas as the Green Guru… That is actually referenced in his trading card in the DC Cosmic Cards series. Look at the upper right monitor behind J’onn and you can see he’s levitating in his Martian form, on some kind of exotic stone structure.

  8. I’m only a third, third! of my thought but I figure I’d share my thoughts on the JLI section.

    Apparently, my takeaway from this is hair, because I like Tora with long hair and Beatriz with short hair, and especially the cut they gave Barda who is as usual the voice of reason and probably the best thing here! No one in this really pulls off that bowl haircut, except maybe someone in the JLE issue! 😀

    I’d also be remiss in not pointing out that, after very carefully pointing out their friends, has Beatriz says that she loves Tora. Now nothing against Oberon but personally I don’t get any chemistry between the, and I’d rather have Beatriz and Tora hook up instead!

    1. I hate to admit it but I agree with Shag, the connecting scenes with Pee Gee are awful, with a really bitter and angry Kara who’s pretty unlikeable. The only line I like was about her complaining about memories being messed around with, though I then had to remember that it was because of her “being” Atlantean, but we can forgive her that! Though to be fair the whole cast is terrible, especially in the Catherine flash forward where none of them really seem to care about each other whatsoever.

      Quick cross-culture question here, is Diet Soda and Root Beer really considered the same thing over there? As for some reason she mentions it once among the other mentions of diet soda, which is ironic as she’s back in London and we really don’t do root beer!

      I think the best compliment is that I’d like to see most of the time travel stories turned into full stories, yes even Bucky Kara with that haircut (which I think she manages to pull off, better than, ironically, her aged-up Karen hairstyle).

      And who can hate a comic where the cat, who in the flash forward must be pushing the years a bit, sets the plot into motion just by being so ornery?

      1. “Quick cross-culture question here, is Diet Soda and Root Beer really considered the same thing over there?” Well, yes, no, maybe. So you can tell where someone is from to an extent by what they call a carbonated drink in the States. Some of the common ones are Soda, Pop, Coke, Soda-Pop, and soft dink. so root beer would be a type of soda and there are diet versions of it but of course while root beer is soda not all soda is root beer.

          1. Assuming it’s not actually a true alcoholic beer made with Birch you do see those.

            But, technically speaking any sugary carbonated drink would fit into the soda, cola, soft drink, etc. area. As other examples Grape Nehi, Sarsaparilla, ginger ale, creme soda etc.

          2. Birch Beer is great stuff. In our grocery store that’s on the shelf with the “fancy pop” that’s in bottled four-packs only. Also: sarsaparilla.

            Here in the Great Lakes we have a line of pop out of Detroit called Faygo, and Faygo has a version called Rock-n-Rye that is kind of like root beer, kind of like Dr. Pepper or Mr. Pibb. Also great stuff, although I find nowadays it’s too sweet for my taste.

        1. My only exposure to Root Beer was that scene/meme from DS9, so I always assumed it was some kind of distinct thing! Who knew a Shag podcast could be educational!

          I guess the closest equivalent to different names for soda by geography here, would be bread rolls, though that might just be a weak excuse to use Pee Gee and baps in the same sentence! 😀

  9. Quick questions:
    1. Has any one read T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents ?
    2. If you have who is favorite agent ?
    Sorry if this a little random . But I’ve bin reading thunder agents so far I’ve read issue 1 of the original series , issues 1&2 of the Dc six issue mini series . And U.N.D.E.R.S.E.A agent issue 2 .

    1. Yeah, this is definitely completely off-topic and much more appropriate to its own avenue somewhere else on social media. And of course I would never actively encourage the derailing of a discussion by veering wildly afield, causing great consternation and emotional distress for our hosts.

      I think that I was first turned on to T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents by Davis Singer’s deeply questionable and professionally unethical but well financed and staffed Deluxe Comics series. I stumbled upon them at a “shop” in a guy’s garage in the early ’90s, and ended up buying everything he had of the material. I’d still stack George Pérez’s cover for the first issue against most any other team’s debut, and unlike a host of other teasing indy comics of the ’80s and ’90s (looking at you, AC Comics,) he actually did equally good interiors! Those five issues of Wally Wood’s T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents released before the litigation brought it down were a bravura showcase for some of the best period super-hero artists, including Dave Cockrum, Jerry Ordway, Keith Giffen, Pat Broderick, Ron Lim, Rich Buckler, Murphy Anderson, and Steve Ditko. As with the Tower originals, the writing wasn’t up to the same standard, but was still fun and breezy in the closest approximation anyone outside of Marvel ever got to classic Stan Lee scripts.

      Though technically in the public domain, John Carbonaro paid for the Tower rights, and fought so hard for the intellectual property that he effectively reclaimed it for private ownership. His own efforts with the material fell far short of– well– anybody else’s, besides whatever Solson tried to pull during the public domain fight. Thanks to their place in a sort of legal limbo where everyone knows they’re public domain, but nobody thinks the property is worth fighting over, appearances continue to be few and far between. Also, the Carbonaro Estate owns everything released beyond the non-copyrighted Tower material, including that swell Singer stuff.

      I did like the DC revival series, and less so IDW’s pass, but we’re going on ten years without anything new in print. The estate should probably just sell the rights to somebody with decent sized-pockets while they still hold any value. I’m always down to try another iteration, though I’d prefer they not get absorbed and forgotten by the Big Two. I have a decent chunk of the original series, most purchased cheap in the early aughts, but haven’t really pursued the rest since DC did the Archive Editions (though I’m missing some of those, too.

      My favorite Agent is NoMan, but I also really like Dynamo, and Weed from the Squad.

  10. Can’t say I thought about missing a month or not considering podcasting is a side thing to work and Family I’m always impressed at how much you get out.

  11. You know, I’ve never read these issues. I had dropped out of both Justice League books at this point, BUT, I was intrigued by the notion of the “Waverider formula” in a team book like this, so had I came across these on the newsstand (where I was still getting 90% of my comics) I would have probably picked them up. And now I wish I had, just for the art alone.

    Just a few thoughts to share:

    Keith Giffen actually provided the art (and some covers) on the last 4 issues of the Hex series. So this is a reunion for him, and probably the reason he dropped Rex into Hex’s timeline.

    I THINK the reason DC made the Captain Atom/Hawk switch wasn’t fans figuring it out. I believe legend has it that someone attending a DC sales summit took the verboten news about who Monarch was and put it in a shop newsletter or something? Pre-internet, the word spread, and since it was a legitimate leak, DC apparently felt they owed it to retailers and readers to change it so there would still be a surprise. Now this may be 100% bunk, but I’ve heard and read it multiple times over the years. You can argue it was an overreaction (and you’d be right) but it was about more than just fans figuring out the “mystery”.

    Well, enough from me, now to get back to my unchanged timeline with my wife Stacy Franklin!

  12. The Justice League America Annual was another one of those impulse buys in the summer of 1991. I was 15 at the time and while I would occassionally go to one of the comic shops in the area I still mainly relied on the newsstands for my books. I remember seeing a house ad for the event and thought it looked cool, so when a friend of mine and I went by one of the shops I picked it up based on that and absolutely loved it. I mainly bought the Superman annuals (I know, shocking) but based on the issue of JLE I mentioned in the feedback for the last episode I made a go at picking up the to Justice League books and the Justice League America annual was one of them. I remember liking it quite a bit beyond not understanding all of the in jokes and the team dynamics. My favorite part was Oberon proposing to Bea because it gave me hope that a short guy could win the heart of a hot super model.

    Did I mention I was 15 and that this seemed like a totally rational feeling to have?

  13. Yeah, still mad at A2001. In the first bookend and early annuals there was essentially one clue given to Monarch’s identity: he had blue eyes. Having it not be Captaib Atom could have been fine, but making it brown-eyed Hawk without addressing the change in the finale was unforgivable.

    DC has always been horrible at follow-through with dates. Not only was there no A2001 followup in 2001, we never got a last 2000 Committee in that year, and it wasn’t until two or three years late that Superman 2020 got added to the official multiverse.

  14. Armageddon 2001 is to Captain Atom what late 80s Avengers was to Captain Marvel 2 aka Monica Rambeau. Stories that took two very cool characters who were relatively new and had become prominent in their respective universes, at the forefront of all the huge events, members and leaders of the biggest superhero teams…and just absolutely wrecked both of them. Neither character has regained the prominence they once had and for the past 30 or so years they’ve sadly occupied the bench.

    I can’t imagine being a Hawk and Dove fan and having this happen. Hawk kills Dove and then becomes a maniacal supervillain. I know it wasn’t a huge selling book for DC but surely they had some fans that had to feel disrespected by what happened.

    I used to own both of these annuals. I am one of the biggest JLI fans around and I barely remember most of what’s in them. When I purged my collection years ago I got rid of both. It’s interesting that the future of the JLA is built around the relationships of these characters while JLE is so incoherent in comparison. There’s nothing about the JLE annual that makes it uniquely JLE. It could’ve been the Titans or Infinity Inc or any other team. And the writers continue to guarantee the obscurity of Bluejay and Silver Sorceress by having them either mocked or do absolutely nothing.

    My dad and I bought all the Armageddon 2001 annuals. I remember the Superman ones being good and the most memorable. I remember one of my friends thinking Booster would become the Monarch due to his power blasts that are shown in one of the Superman annuals to be powerful enough to blow Superman away. Interestingly, DC Infinite only has three of these annuals (and the bookends) which is really odd. Especially since one of them is LEGION. I wonder where that got reprinted so that it ended up digitized?

      1. Thanks, Siskoid! I’m currently listening to the FW team-up episode by you and Shagg that features Captain Marvel and I plan on commenting over there. I have LOTS of opinions and thoughts on Monica Rambeau and am happy to share them. I seem to be doomed to like characters who get cast aside 🙂

  15. Meanwhile…

    The mystery of who Shag is has been solved!

    If you ask ChatGTP who the Irredeemable Shag is, this is its answer:

    “The Irredeemable Shag is a pseudonym used by a blogger and podcaster named Rob Kelly. He is known for his work covering various topics related to comics, including DC Comics, Aquaman, and Firestorm. The Irredeemable Shag moniker was initially created for a website Kelly started in the late 1990s called “The Once and Future Flash,” which focused on the Flash and related characters. Kelly has since gone on to produce several podcasts and written various articles about comics under the Irredeemable Shag name.”

    AH HA! I knew it! Shag and Rob are the SAME PERSON! I am even more impressed by Rob than I was previously. All those podcasts with “Shag”… IT WAS ONE GUY! What skill! He’s a regular RICH LITTLE!

        1. ChatGPT has been corrected. Now (or at least for now) it responds…

          The Irredeemable Shag is a pseudonym for a comic book fan and podcaster named Shag Matthews. He is known for his love and knowledge of comic books, particularly those published by DC Comics. Matthews is a co-host of several popular comic book podcasts, including “The Fire and Water Podcast” and “Who’s Who: The Definitive Podcast of the DC Universe”. He is also a frequent contributor to other comic book podcasts and websites. The nickname “Irredeemable Shag” reflects his irreverent and humorous approach to comic book discussions, as well as his tendency to take a contrarian stance on certain topics.

    1. Does this mean Lexcorp was using ChatGPT back in the Byrne-era Superman #2? Good thing Lex understood how unreliable it was.

  16. Shag, Jon and Clinton, cheers for another fine episode. It’s funny, I remember the JLA Annual fairly well, but the JLE one, with the super-intriguing cover, not at at. Hearing you talk about it, it’s apparently not so surprising.

    Clinton makes a brilliant point about the Legion flight ring being something Superman would find useful under the red sun. Jon, having read through all the Superman comics up to 30 years ago, could tell us if Superman ever do use it in such an occasion?

    I like Kara’s headband outfit too and hate the fried egg, it really is utterly generic and soulless. The original – with or without boob window – remains the best, but the headband look spoke to her new Atlantean origins; also, it looked like something Alan Davis would come up with.

  17. So sorry I’m late to the comments section, you know after all my catching up over last year and listening to all the episodes one would think that a measly 3hrs would be a breeze… But unfortunately life got in the way so I’m almost a week late in commentary!

    Once again I’m impressed with the guests on the pod. Particularly for their holding out for this episode and their knowledge of Armageddon 2001. That’s no mean feat because if there’s one DC Crossover that’s almost instantly forgettable apart from one gimmick its…. Eclipso Darkness Within! Wait sorry I mean Bloodlines! Wait that’s not right it was Planet DC? Legends of the Death Earth? Ghosts? Elseworlds? Pulp Heroes? No of course it’s Armageddon 2001 a story so strong that it could survive anything apart from itself. Many of those Annuals for Armageddon 2001 were entirely forgettable and for a good reason, they were just a trial run for Elseworlds. Yet I bought most of them because I was ready for the pay off. I’d figured it out that it was likely going to be Captain Atom and thats from someone who was still getting the majority of their comics from mail order and lived in a small town in the south of Scotland. The obvious switcheroo still frustrates me to this day. You can even tell in the art of A2001 #2 that there was a rush job. That the entire Hawk swap made absolutely no sense because it was obviously a boot strap paradox (Who built the armour?).

    However I wonder if I wasn’t the only one who was frustrated with DC in 1991 as I got the impression that the JLE annual team had been told in advance it was going to be Cap and then had the rug pulled from them during the writing process. Because I can’t believe editorial allowed JLE to be so silly as the last chapter before the A2001 #2 unless the knew they couldn’t really defend their crazy swap out. The two annuals themselves use the conceit well to allow for short stories and multiple artists, the execution of those stories was somewhat variable. Particularly in JLE which if I recall was further along into breakdowns territory and there’s an element of Keith Giffen working his notice and doing whatever he likes “What are they going to do fire me?” style. However the introduction of the diet soda element shows how Jones is flexing his ownership of the writing that is due to come in the near future. I remember at the time not enjoying his solo writing runs in JLE/I/A and I think that starts about here.

    I did wonder if the reasons that DC Infinite hasn’t got many A2001 annuals is because they are somewhat embarrassed and no-one has been asking for a trade collection of them. Which is odd as DC milked Monarch over and over – as well as completely re-writing his origin and identity so many times I’m surprised we haven’t had Monarch turn out to the Time Trapper. Or maybe we have?

    So it was great that we had experts to keep this episode informed, because i think many of the listeners will be going on hazy memories about these effectively forgettable annuals. Much like the up coming Giffen led Eclipso annual crossover I think these Annuals can be ignored in the most part as they aren’t by any means classic stories. So unlike the original JLI Annuals already covered – The Joker story, Antarctica etc. They are fun in parts but I do feel that Shag is about right that JLE Annual isn’t so great at all and certainly not as good as the JLA one. Yet the parts are all there for the JLE one Curt Swan Legion! Sir Demetri , Ralph meeting Holmes even the Cat story. So why does it feel that when it’s all put together it’s not as good? I dunno but it’s weird.

    Anyway despite the flaws of the issues covered the podcast while long didn’t seem long, there was just plenty to talk about and both conversations were great listening bringing with them some great jokes. I should also mention how excited I got to hear the words Babylon 5 and Ultraverse in the same podcast! If only there had been a reference to Crossgen (No-one thought to mention Ralph could crossover with Ruse) I’d have won my geek bingo this week!

    Well done to all involved particularly as these were tricky books to cover!

    For the record why is everyone talking about Power Girl being Atlantean? Because I’m fairly sure in this run of the book it’s not mentioned at all? And since PG is the one DC hero who has a similar number of retcons as the Hawks (NOT THAT Hawk! I mean Hawkman and Hawkwoman… Hawk has only had a few retcons unless you count monarch and …… I’ve fallen down the rabbit hole here). As I was said since PG has had so many retcons I always consider the Atlantean age and costume to be something we don’t need to discuss ever again!

    Anyway I think from here on in for the era it’s breakdowns so moving JLE Annual out of that was a good step even if the A2001 impact is still to hit. I don’t remember Breadkdowns that fondly but I’m going to breakout (see what I did there) my floppies to read as I’ve been dreading this part of the run but hoping it’s better than I recall.

    Kudos to Jon and Clinton and Shag for an enjoyable almost 3hr hours!

    1. Oh, shucks, Douglas. Guess you won’t be endorsing me to host a spin-off show all about Power Girl’s Atlantean era? I was all set to lay down the tracks and had even thought up a title. “JLI: What the Fish?!” (OK, OK, maybe not.)

      1. While I am sure it would be well presented I’ll give it a miss.
        Also there is a queue for a PG podcast with John Koos and Symbol Pending still to fight it out…. Unless is this like a royal rumble thing with loads of folks fighting it out for the honour?

        1. I’m still waiting for a chance to defend my honour, you could almost say I’m going to have a Breakdown about it! 😉

          Hey, and you never know if I get a taste for podcasting, and overcome the idea of talking to myself, being entertaining and pesky stuff like editing, I’ll make that Pee Gee podcast I originally planned before starting the blog!

          Maybe something like Symbol Pending vs the DC Universe?

          1. Podcasting alone? You’d have guests join you surely? I mean a podcast about PG surely needs a pair.

  18. A little late commenting as usual, but loved the discussion and guests also as usual! This was great fun to hear, and made great sense to cover these issues together. Hats off to Shagg for the editing this monster.

    With all the comments above, I have very little new to add. First, Maguire’s JLE cover is just fantastic, and look at all the characters he got to do, perhaps for the first time, like General Glory!

    Next, Waverider is totally clueless about the aftereffects of his power. He’s always saying “Only I’ll see their future.” And every time, the character involved almost immediately takes action to derail that future. EVERY TIME! After the second or third time, you’d think he would have caught on and realized “this isn’t working, I’m changing their future with my actions, and I might inadvertently create Monarch if I keep this up.” He needed to study up more on temporal mechanics, or rewatch Bill and Ted.

    Finally, hats off to Russ Braun for making the JLE legitimately look 10 years older. That was just great. I had the pleasure of meeting Russ at Baltimore Comic Con in 2021, and my JLI comics really took him back and comparing how his art has evolved since then. I asked him to sign JLE Annual #2 and JLI #45, and we had a great talk about his career and how JLI was his big break.

    Did I have any assignments from this episode? I don’t remember, but it’s ok, because I ain’t your monkey, Shagg! BWAH-HAH-HAH!

  19. What a mammoth episode! This was lots of fun and the two guests were great. This was a fun blast back to the heady days of Armageddon 2001. For whatever reason, this felt like the next big crossover since Crisis that ….. kind of fizzled, I want to say? I enjoyed the 2001 annuals I did buy, but did not feel compelled to buy all of them. Mostly it was just for the covers, like Superman Annual #3.

    JLA – I really like Sprouse art (Hammerlocke anyone?) so enjoyed the Martian Manhunter story. In fact, most of these stories I really enjoyed for the art, but not necessarily the story.

    JLE – This is the only JLE annual I own, that I’m pretty sure I picked up only for the Maguire cover. On page 4, why is Crimson Fox’s “tail” cuddling with Blue Jay? This may have brought up, my memory being Swiss cheese and all, but can Crimson Fox control her headdress like it’s a prehensile tail? I know people have opinions, but I don’t mind Curt Swan’s art, but sometimes, all his men start to look like 1950’s dads to me, i.e. top panel in page 39, Lightning Lad with a double chin.

    Hey! It’s not my fault if you missed anyone in the shout outs! It was Starro Mike. I had no control while that sucker was on my face!

    Another fantastic episode everyone! Keep up the great work!

    1. You’re not wrong about the Crimson Fox’s headress/tail never being shown as prehensile before. Must’ve been done for the visual gag. Btw, between Crimson Fox and Silver Sorceress, JLE was rocking some of the most bizarre headgear on a superhero team. And both of them wear brown, which few other superheroes except maybe Gangbuster and Wolverine wear. Fox gets a costume update in post-Breakdowns JLE and it’s kind of an improvement.

  20. When I was running my DC Heroes campaign set in the post-Crisis universe, I made the characters go through the big crossover events. They more or less formed during Legends, had a Manhunter hanging around during Millennium, saved Paris during Invasion!… Armageddon 2001 was going to be a big one where they were to imagine their characters 10 years later. Sadly, the campaign had to end just before that happened.

    I’m still disappointed about it.

  21. I haven’t heard this episode yet. I’m still about 4 years behind, so no spoilers on the pod! I haven’t gotten to the season where Shag’s evil twin returns from the dead yet!

    I couldn’t wait any longer to leave a comment about how much I am enjoying this podcast. JLI has always held a special place in my nerdy little heart and to find out so many people have such passion for the stories, the characters, the comedy and the heart of this series really fills me with a lot of nostalgia fueled joy.

    But this isn’t just a trip down memory lane. There have been some incredible conversations about artistic choices, character arcs, the creative process, introductions to comics, content that shaped fandom, personal stories….and…butts…apparently. A lot of talk about butts.

    Ever since discovering The JLI Podcast, and starting my listening journey through the years, this pod has really been my latest obsession and I can’t wait to catch up and finally be able to talk about all the twists and turns these last four years have in store for me….like finding out Shag is pregnant in season 3….but not knowing who the father is until season 4!

    Thanks for all the hard work you and your guest’s do on every episode to produce a fun, engaging and surprising Pod.

    1. Hi Chris,

      As someone who binged the show and powered through about 5 or maybe 6 years of the show to catch up, (I think it was october) be warned the withdrawal symptoms are HARD. Waiting a month for a new episode is such a massive change from the 2 or 3 pods a week pace that you find yourself jonesing and it could lead to other harder podcasts on the network like Who’s Who or Who’s Editing or Invasion! or even other pods such as DCOCD – In many ways this show is a gateway pod… you have been warned.

      Please note I said Jonesing and not “Shagging” because really that’s a whole other genre.

        1. You’ll be fine the show is going to end some day just be prepared 🙂

          Seriously thought there are loads of great shows out there both on this network and others.

  22. Great show, John, Clinton, and Shag. The Armageddon annuals were a fun change of pace. I liked the “what if” scenarios for everyone, even if all of them weren’t great. The guest artist line-ups helped a lot, too. Speaking of artists, what happen to all the embassy couch and chair doilies? Not a fan of the minimalist re-design. The various futures were mostly fun to visit. Curt Swan nails drawing middle aged men as always, and it’s always cool seeing Jonah Hex. I’d say the future looks bright for Bat Lash and Crimson Fox, but things are definitely looking grim for Catherine Cobert’s hair. All in all, a fun set of annuals and even funner (more fun..?) coverage by all three of you. Well done.

  23. Hey shag I don’t know if collect comics that do tribute to the JSI . Check out headlock comics there is a comic there that I think you’ll want for collection. With Jim Cornette the wrestling manger Channeling his inter guy Gardner .

  24. Irish Embassy here, apologies for not commenting for so long but apparently Waverider wanted to see what my future held and I was under his spell for so long that I awoke months in the future! Damn you, Waverider! Well, at least I know now that Monarch is in fact Shagg…….what do you mean everyone figured that out and DC has changed Monarch to be Rob Kelly! No one would buy that!!!

    I really enjoyed both annuals. I enjoyed the whole Armageddon series, it was one of the first crossovers I started to collect. I guess the change from Captain Atom to Hawk as Monarch did not bother me too much at the time (not reading either character’s book at the time) but with hindsight and after reading the last few Captain Atom issues, it makes more sense. I guess even the JLA annual cover was subliminally pointing towards the Captain – while the flaming hand is Waverider, one could easily argue that it could be Captain Atom’s hand being shown.

    Looking forward to the Breakdowns coverage that will be coming up soon – are you going to include the Green Lantern mini-crossover featuring Guy as part of your coverage?

    1. Hey Irish Embassy, Happy St Patrick’s Day! Not sure if you guys have the same issues we have over in the Scottish Embassy on St Andrew’s day… Loads of Leaguers and staff arriving through the teleporter claiming a bit of their heritage is from our nation drinking all the good booze, then making a huge mess and not able to sing past the first line of the national anthem…. But still they keep trying!!! That being said if you can give us a shout when Fire shows up, we promise that if we pop over we won’t make a mess 😉

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