JLUCast : Hawk and Dove

Chris and Cindy discuss the animated debut of DC’s battling brothers, Hawk & Dove. The dysfunctional duo join Wonder Woman in an attempt to stop Ares from using the power of the Greek Gods to escalate a civil war raging in Eastern Europe.

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Clip credits:

Clips from Justice League Unlimited “Hawk and Dove”. Justice League Unlimited theme by Michael McCuistion

19 responses to “JLUCast : Hawk and Dove

  1. I have no memory of this episode–I know OF it, but I can’t remember anything about it. Did I somehow miss it at some point? As characters, I don’t think Hawk & Dove ever really worked except in very limited doses. No surprise, I thought they did work when Alan Brennert wrote them into an issue of B&B.

    GREAT casting coup, getting Fred Savage and Jason Hervey and then flipping the roles. Andrea Romano, the gold standard of casting.

    Thanks for the brief history of the Hawk and Dove comic. Dear Lord, such a talented man but Ditko was such an insufferable prick. (You don’t have to read this part on the show)

    1. Yes, that continuity-busting Alan Brennert story is great. I love how Marv Wolfman felt like he had to paper over it in NTT #50 (or technically Tales of the Teen Titans #50, but you get my drift).

      More Ditko discussion next episode!

  2. Hawk and Dove are too often portrayed as one-dimensional caricatures of their positions. Chris, your idea to force Hawk into a position where he has to play against type is more interesting. The last time we rewatched JLU, I remember thinking that these characters could be really interesting if they acknowledged that their bag of tricks, the tactics they’re comfortable using to engage the world and solve problems, were insufficient. If they kept getting in situations that forced them to grow out of their comfort zones, they’d have a heck of an arc. They try their go-to ways, and it doesn’t work. Hawk learns how to negotiate a just peace, while Dove learns that sometimes one side just has to win.

    Anyway, it’d be interesting to me. Thanks for making a fun podcast out of problematic characters and mediocre JLU episode.

    1. That would have been a great way to go with these characters on JLU…or anywhere, actually. I don’t think we ever see either of them in prominent roles on JLU again, just as background characters. I think that kind of shows what one-trick ponies they can be, if someone doesn’t stop and rethink their entire reason for being.

  3. Another good episode in a great season.

    As Chris surely knows, I am a big Hawk and Dove fan, but mostly for the Kesel runs on the book. (And that Monarch crap never happened … you hear me!!!) So imagine my surprise when they got the spotlight in such an early episode. If anything was going to clue you in that this series was going to have deep cuts, it is a Hawk and Dove episode!

    I agree that both sides just walking away seems a bit far-fetched. But if I can buy a super-woman made alive from clay is fighting an empty suit of magic armor powered by conflict, I suppose I’ll have to buy some soldiers becoming pacifists.

    I know you mention all the future mentions of the country but let’s not forget that the Annihilator is a key part of the ‘Task Force X’ episode coming up.

    And yes, I would love to be on a Supergirl episode. Either ‘The Return’ which has one of the best Supergirl moments in it. Or ‘Panic in the Sky’ which wraps up the Galatea arc. Supergirl just rocks on this show.

    1. I’ll be honest Anj, I did forget you were a big Hawk and Dove fan! I liked the Kesel’s run too. It was a lot of fun, up until they got too heavy into the whole “Lords of Order and Chaos” thing, at least for me.

      And we did drop that the Annihilator will return, but we didn’t want to spoil where and when. Whoops! 😉

  4. Impressive podcast most impresses. This was a pretty good cartoon. Though to be honest I didn’t see it when it first aired on cartoon network. I miss this episode. Probably due to college. Though I did get the DVD of Justice league Unlimited when I was working at target and watched this episode it was pretty good. I remember when the armor gets reused later. That worked out pretty well. It was good hearing that you wonder kids work together. And having them change which one played which character. Though Jason Herbie does seem to be more like the characters playing here is that he was on the wonder years. At least based on when he was only Scott Bao reality TV show. And when he was in NWA wrestling. Not sure if he was really dating Missy Hyatt at the time or if that was a work. I.e. just part of the rest of shells. But, he put on a few matches. Mostly in getting beat up. But, he is a normal height guy and wait class. So they really could put them over anybody. And having him lose in the ring don’t push other wrestlers.

    At any rate this was a good episode to give to wonder woman. I’m not sure if this one fits your personality, but I can’t remember if this was done around the time where the neck happened. At that point DC was writing her a lot darker. And thinking a lot more with her sword in her brain. It doesn’t fit her as a character, but that’s what they were doing with her at the time. They later they even had her fight a Gorgon and she cut off the snake is from the Gorgon stare to blind her self. So she could win the fight. For a while even though it was in the 2000. 90s grim dark had kind of playing to wonder woman’s title. It didn’t make any sense, but that’s what happened. We should just be glad she wasn’t covered in pouches. So it probably seemed out of place, we were all expecting the 80s version of wonder woman. Or even the 90s version. Or at least the John Brynne version. Which was more the keeping of the way she was written in this cartoon. But, for whatever reason they decided to make her all dark, dark, darkedy , 90s dark. Edge Lord supreme. That thankfully didn’t appear in this cartoon too much.

    Kind of weird they waited so long to follow the trends. But, it was what it was. So her snapping Maxwell Lord’s neck wasn’t surprising in her comic. Neither was it shocking that Batman and Superman thought she was going to stab deathstroke in the head when they fought. Though she claims she was just going to nail him to the wall so you could go somewhere. But, after the next nap they weren’t sure what to think. Even wonder woman got some bizarre characterization. Batman and Superman just get more noticed for it. But, it happened to all the characters. Even when they tried to turn Martian man Hunter enabled to a low-budget Mike Hammer. But, with weird aliens. I was still fighting the White Martians. Where he mind wiped or completely remove their minds altogether in a battle he had some. Kind of weird everyone’s mad at Zatana for identity crisis. But, no one cares the Martian man Hunter completely destroyed the minds of several White Martians. Any rate it was good seeing Hawk and Dove in this I liked the late 80s run that Carl Keasle drew of them. I missed what Rob Linfield was the artist on that book.

    Though let’s be honest Carl could draw rings around Rob. Specifically at that point. That’s not a dig at Rob. But Carl was that good. So I definitely was not a big fan of Hawk turning into the monarch. Back to this episode it was done pretty well. The voice casting was excellent. The storyline worked out well. The main villain fit. And hearing Ed Asner as the Greek God of invention worked well. Everything about this episode was spot on. And I definitely like this version of Mars way better than how he was depicted in the wonder woman cartoon movie. He worked well in life action. In that cartoon movie was great, but the villain was deftly not make it work. At any rate can’t wait to hear the next podcast.

    1. I really liked Liefeld’s art on the Hawk and Dove series, but I think a lot of that was him being “reined in” by Karl Kesel’s inks. When I first saw his work over at Marvel, I was like “Is this the same guy?” I think Kesel kept the energy, but deleted a lot of the noodly “covering up my inexperience” random lines Liefeld drew in. But that look made him a superstar, so what do I know?


  5. I was actually fine with sticking to the simple approach for Hawk & Dove, since many viewers likely didn’t know them at all, so this is an introduction to the characters. Maybe later, they could have done some twists with them, but it’s fine for this episode. Not that it was great, but as you both say, “an okay JLU is better than most other shows.”

    Not that I’ve read a lot of the brothers stories, but personally, I prefer Dawn over Don. It made for a more interesting dynamic, and maybe JLU had plans eventually. Hard to tell with so many DC characters to choose from.

    I trust my invite for the Outsiders episode is coming soon. I can’t to revisit that one… oh there wasn’t an Outsiders episode in JLU. sigh…..

  6. I enjoyed your review of this episode, Franklins, which is a marvel because I never liked this episode at all. We see the growing League here, which is nice, and get to see the growing pains of that League, but I have to say: Hawk and Dove just bore me to tears as characters. But upon listening to the podcast, I decided I would go back and re-watch the episode and give it another try.

    Well, I still think Hawk & Dove are eye-roll worthy, but the episode is actually much better than I remember it!

    The whole calling Supergirl by her real name instead of her title – Cindy, I think you’re dead right. I believe the writers had a different reason for doing it, but the way it comes off is sanctimonious! Imagine how many seconds it would take for Green Arrow to walk away from that fight if they kept calling him “Oliver”. It’s a lack of respect, which might be deliberate to set up Supergirl’s growth arc in later episodes, but it now officially irritates me!

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