Special guest Captain Entropy stops by to discuss Season 3, episode 2 “Shadow of the Hawk”! Shayera’s new love interest has Batman and Green Lantern concerned, since he appears to be somewhat of a stalker! She follows him to an ancient Egyptian tomb, where startling secrets are revealed, including his other identity as Hawkman!
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Clip credits:
Clips from Justice League Unlimited “Shadow of the Hawk”, music by Michael McCuistion, theme by Kristopher Carter.
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I guess an appearance on an episode of FW PRESENTS hosted by me would count towards a Robbie? You’ve all given me something to think about now that POD DYLAN is off the table.
Make it happen, Kelly. We have many deserving podcast guests who want that brass ring!
Well, Rob, as usual for this topic, I’m torn between not wanting your pity and absolutely, totally wanting your pity. I’d a Robbie after a rules change a Robbie with an asterisk? And if so, do I care? These thoughts have vexed me for — well, single-digit minutes, but that’s kind of a lot given my attention span.
Your two movie podcasts also come to mind as options. Years ago, we talked about the possibility of my being one of multiple guests on Fade Out coverage of The Shootist. The thing is, your stock has risen so much in the film world (and deservedly so) that you can probably get Ron Howard on to talk about his film debut. And I would want you to.
I could also just wait until you start another podcast. History indicates it won’t take long. Honestly, I will be happy with whatever you decide, because I really enjoy talking with all of you, and I’m grateful for the opportunities you’ve given me to do so. I joke about the award, and I admire Rob’s work such that being on five podcasts is a cool distinction, but it isn’t the point.
Hmm, italics got away from me there. I’m rolling the dice whenever I use them.
“Hey, I’ve got an idea! Let’s take a well regarded character who’s been around since the Golden Age and make him a seemingly insane stalker! People will love it!”
Needless to say I was less than whelmed by Hawkman’s portrayal in this episode.
I took it at face value when this initially aired, but now…. I don’t really disagree with you. Looking forward to how others feel about this Hawkman. Let us know folks!
I THINK making Hawkman a bit of a loon is saying “ya want hawkman ha we’ll give ya hawkman ya wont likw
It was an … intersting and unique way to go with the character, for certain. And since this is the last season, and they knew he only had a handful of appearances to make at best, they probably figured “What they hey”. It served their ongoing Shayera/ John Stewart “will they won’t they get back together” story by throwing another obstacle in its way.
I only know this cartoon from what I heard on the podcast. I only know Hawkman from what I read in the comics before 1987.
1.) KAY-tar??!!!?? Knock it off. The first syllable has a short “A” sound. Listen to Dr. Anj, or me, or anyone who grew up within 50 miles of either of us say “Carter.” It sounds like “Cahtuh.” It sounds like that in a Thanagarian accent, too.
2.) Absorbascon. Absorb-a-SCON. SCON! SCON!
3.) DC truly made a hash of Hawkman with Crisis. I agree with the Captain that this cartoon version goes some way toward rectifying that, but once one starts looking at the timeline of Egypt, well…it’s still a mess. Why not have Thanagarians visit Egypt during their Classical era? Maybe Thanagarian technology parted the Red Sea? They got there a few decades after Rama Tut.
4.) On the other hand, Thanagar was never that technologically advanced. Katar Hol’s father invented the Nth metal wing technology. Before that, they were perpetual victims of masked birds.
5.) I could explain Shayera’s strength with the old explanation: her Nth metal (sorry, Roy Thomas, I never got used to reading Ninth metal), which of course has gravity-defying powers, would allow her to lift and toss people. But then you say her wings are part of her. Oh, mercy. And she had a son with Jon Stewart? The male offspring of an African-American male and a feathered-winged woman? That’s Norda/Northwind!!!
6.) Carter Hall/Joseph Gardner found a freaking AbsorbASCON! He knows anything he wants to know! He knows where the JLA is going to be, and who they are. I don’t know how he travels that quickly, unless the AbsorbaSCON taught him how to create teleportation technology.
7.) Batman learns everything about Hall/Gardner. Batman secretly follows Shayera. Who’s the real stalker in this episode?
8.) The Captain made a point about Batman and Stewart acting like father figures to Shayera by pointing out that he and the Franklins are parents of daughters. As am I. Also Shag, Anj, Time Priest and others reading this. Have you ever followed your daughter on a date? Would you even consider it.
9.) Carter Hall introduces himself as Carter Hall. Maybe Joseph Gardner is his “dead name.” That’s his name now. What lie did he tell Shayera? Was the dagger Thanagarian or not? Were the glyphs Thanagarian or not?
10.) I don’t know what happens next episode. I read many stories of Hawkman in the 1970s and 1980s. Carter/Katar (it sounds the same!) was always a straightforward, by-the-book, unimaginative kind of guy. If he learned information that required him to tell someone something, he would do it because it needed to be done. Especially if he was told to do so by someone in authority. This was the great contrast between him and Green Arrow in the 70s, not the simplistic political shorthand. Carter would obey the rules, Ollie would question them. He had knowledge about Shayera that he thought she should know. So he told her. He rarely though beyond the immediate result. I have no doubt that the Captain has met some people in his career who are similar. (“I have been assigned a task. I must complete the task in proper procedure.”)
11.) Cindy criticized Shayera’s violent reaction to something. She has consistently reacted with violence in almost every situation in this series.
12.) In Hawkman’s three-issue Showcase story (101-103), the villain was The Shadow Thief. Until that was revealed in the story, his shadow appeared in many panels alongside the Hawks’ and Adam Strange’s. Although apparently not in the mini-series The Shadow War of Hawkman!
13.) Flying people and maces that can do whatever the plot requires are fine, but not re-incarnation? Oh, boy. Speaking of re-incarnation and Cindy’s professed fondness for that them in stories, have you/she read Camelot 3000? It’s one of the story threads!
14.) If Hector Hall shows up, don’t trust that guy!
1.) KAY-tar??!!!?? Knock it off. The first syllable has a short “A” sound. Listen to Dr. Anj, or me, or anyone who grew up within 50 miles of either of us say “Carter.” It sounds like “Cahtuh.” It sounds like that in a Thanagarian accent, too.
2.) Absorbascon. Absorb-a-SCON. SCON! SCON!
It’s all made up, Pronounce it how you damn want. I will die on this hill.
Rob “Haaaan Solo” Kelly
Those ARE the DCAU pronunciations, aren’t they?
Geez Terry, maybe switch to decaf? It’s only a cartoon man. We’re all friends here.
1) A Siskoid pointed out, this is how the episode pronounced Katar. I never read that Katar and Carter were meant to sound EXACTLY the same. Unless someone can summon the spirit of Gardner Fox via seance, it’s open for debate.
2) They did change the name of this device, and its not really the absorbascon from the comics anyhow. I should have mentioned the altered spelling.
3) Fair points.
4) In the Earth-One continuity, Thanagar provided the JLA teleportation devices and a lot of the satelite tech.
5) Yes, Warhawk (intoduced on Batman Beyond) was retconned to be John and Shayera’s son, after their romance was established. I don’t think Northwind really entered into the equation. It seemed natural to make this Hawk character Shayera’s son, and John his father, after their relationship was developed.
6) The AbsorbaCRON and AbsorbaSCON aren’t exactly the same device. JMD obviously based it on the comic verison, but changed up the spelling, the form, etc.
7) Batman was trying to protect a teammate and friend, something he’s been known to do before. But the show doesn’t excuse him for tailing her, and neither does she.
8) I don’t think anyone said father figures. John certainly isn’t a father figure to Shayera, and neither is Batman. Concerned friends at least. If I thought my daughter was in danger and I couldn’t stop her from meeting with someone dangerous, hell yeah I’d follow her.
9) He didn’t lie about that from that persepective, but he did leave out the trailing her across the globe thing.
10) This version of Katar isn’t the Silver Age, Earth-One version. They made the choice to go in a different direction. Mileage may vary on whether that was the right way to go, but they did.
11) We constantly bring up that Shayera needs to think first and smash later. She’s grown a bit, but she’s still a work in progress.
12) That’s cool.
13) I don’t think Cindy has read Camelot 3000, but I have, years ago.We’ll have to see if we can find it somewhere.
14) No Hector Hall coming, so no worries there.
Terry, thanks for commenting! We all know that when Diabolu Frank comments, some of his enthusiasm is intended for provocative effect. Now, I’m not calling you Frank (see what I did there?), but I wonder if that isn’t also the case here. On the chance that it is, I shall respond in like manner.
1. Cahtuh? Why, what a coincidence! Southerners using the planter accent pronounce it the same way. That’s why we all talk about the local boy done good, President Jimmeh Cahtuh.
Generally, when I see a foreign word, I assign the same vowel sounds it would have in Latin or a Romance language, because lots of languages with foreign alphabets are transliterated that way. In this case, that would be Kah-TAR or KAH-tar, depending on where you put the accent. But, until I took high school French, I just said Kay-tar, and Gardner Fox isn’t around to ask, so I’m not picky.
2. Absorb-a-SCON? What’s a SCON? I’d rather absorb a SCONE, thanks. However, this does explain why I can’t find an Absorbacron on eBay. I’m spelling it wrong!
3. Thanks. I plan to check the Venditti run like Siskoid said, and see what he did with Egypt.
4. Yeah, the Man-Hawks are an embarrassment to everyone involved.
7. Still Carter. See, Batman’s a detective.
8a. As Chris, pointed out, I wasn’t talking about John & Bruce when I brought up our parental instincts. I was really talking about how our status as parents made Cindy, Chris, and me even more suspicious of Carter. After he did the first thing that was stalker-y, we (at least I) interpreted everything he did through that lens. That was true even of things the creators probably meant to be innocent.
8b. I have I don’t like to go on record about hypotheticals.
10. Yep, I absolutely have met people like that in the military. With good leadership, they’re great teammates, and we probably couldn’t run without them. Stretching them to the point that they can plan and lead and use their imagination is a growth process that takes effort and time, but it’s usually worth it.
13. I understand Dwayne’s point. I think we’re all willing to suspend disbelief in some areas more than others. If you want to hear me rant about things I found implausible in a story with xenomorphs, check out the Rolled Spine appearance I mentioned. https://rolledspine.wordpress.com/
Nothing to add to your point on all the others. Have a good week!
Ha! 8b should start “I haven’t.” I really haven’t, and I’m blaming fat fingers and autocorrect, not a Freudian slip.
Great episode. Based on what you think an integrated Hawkman should be, I double down on my recommendation for Venditti’s Hawkman.
Always nice to hear Captain Entropy on a podcast. Your intro made it sound like it was going to be Bass. We dodged a bullet.
I will definitely check that out that run on the DCU Infinite app!
Ha, I thought of Bass a while back, but since we try to keep JLUCast positive, I thought maybe it would be best to look for a guest like the Captain who is a bit more of a fan.
He would have been positive, he can’t help himself. Just a positive podcast guy.
Hey! Let’s have Bass show up for the next one with me! What? Two guests will make the episode four hours long? That’s just more JLUcast to love!
Um…no. I’m sure Bass has more Hawkman performances in his future, like his wonderfully hilarious take in the Hero Points live episode.
Siskoid, you are too kind, and I will endeavor to check out Venditti.
hawkman gets reincarnated so quicky he should run into himself
Again, let me reiterate my recommendation for the Venditti run.
Gene and Robs, thank you for commenting, also!
I wasn’t really a Hawkman fan in the past so I won’t comment on the muddy history but I did get the initial stalker vibe when I first watched this episode and every time after. Just one quick note though on something the Captain stated. Captain, you suggested that Shayera is looking down on humans’ ability to meld with the Absorbacron but I disagree with this take. Don’t forget that we learned in Starcrossed that J’onn was never able to read her or any of the Thanagarians’ minds – until he tried “very hard” with Kraeger. So I didn’t take it as a dig at the humans’ mental capabilities; it could very well be too much for a human to accommodate without some repercussions.
Ah, good point Chris! I had forgotten that.
Chris, you’re right. I’m sure there are legitimate differences, and Shayera may not be saying that our minds are infantile or weak, just that the Absorbacron (or scon — whichever) wasn’t designed with us in mind. It sounded a little condescending, though. Of course, I’m an American white male, accustomed to being the default setting for things in this culture, and I could be over-sensitive to that sort of thing (mostly not kidding).