The penultimate episode! Michael Bailey joins The Irredeemable Shag to delve into “I CAN’T BELIEVE IT’S NOT THE JUSTICE LEAGUE” from 2005 by Keith Giffen, J.M. DeMatteis & Kevin Maguire! Our beloved SUPER BUDDIES are in for a wild ride to H-E-L-L! Plus, we discuss how the DC universe had transformed by the time this hit the shelves. We wrap up with YOUR listener feedback!
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It’s not the penultimate episode, you’re a very naughty boy!
Ummm… from the dictionary:
Penultimate means “next to last.”
So, it’s accurate. Sorry!
Did I hear you say they made a joke about Max shooting Ralph in the head? You know, that was the original plan for Countdown to Infinite Crisis. It was changed to Blue Beetle because of all the fan backlash to Sue’s death in Idenity Crisis. From your last episode, it sounded like they didn’t know it was coming.
You can’t make this stuff up.
Hal, of course they make this stuff up! It’s comics, it’s not like the comics are channeling the real events of another dimension full of superheroes! That’s a nutty idea and completely implausible!
Wait, comics aren’t real? Next you’ll tell me that Santa Claus is a fantasy.
If comics aren’t real, what have I been keeping in those long white boxes in the basement?
Hal – Great point about Ralph and being shot! I’d heard that, but forgot to mention during the episode. Thanks for sharing that info!
So I have not listened to this episode yet but I have heard that there won’t be a feedback section on the last episode which I think is okay… But it does mean Mr Bailey might not get his plaudits on air so to speak… Unless this episode is a dud of course.
Anyway I am hear to say thank you for this show run. I was late to the party but once I got here I wasn’t leaving for anything. It brought a whole bunch of people into my life and I a grateful for the friendships it’s formed for me and my family.
Shag might or might not be the best Spodcaster out there but to me he is the best this show could have had and I grateful for this run.
I’ll loop back later after a listen but I wanted to get my thanks in early
Doug – Thanks for the kind words! And did you listen to the Feedback section first, just to hear your name read aloud? LOL!
I always listen to the Feedback first! Then listen to the whole show again. Just so I jog my memory on the previous episode before the new one!
Its also not uncommon for me to read the last page of a book once I am quarter way in 😉
Anyway thank you for this fantastic penultimate episode.
Looking back I agree the over sexualisation of Mary Marvel was over the top, and no doubt lead to the same for Supergirl further down the road. Why Mary is considered corruptible is beyond me, and it’s frustrating that they keep doing this to her and not for example Blue Shazam. It’s been done so many times I can’t think that Giffen and DeMattis can be blamed for it because I suspect it’s been the default mode for DC Editorial when trying to figure out what to do with Mary.
I remember almost having a tear when reading the whole Tora story in this series it seemed awfully cruel and unfair but maybe it was editorial mandate that the book puts everyone back in the box as they were found. But thankfully there was a happier ending sort of in Justice League 3000/3001.
But back to the this podcast series,
it’s been a much shorter ride for me of course but you’ve put in a Herculean effort and indeed you went the distance! Now excuse me I suddenly have an earworm of Michael Bolton singing for some reason.
Many congratulations to you and everyone involved.
P.s. is there any truth to the rumour that your official first names are also Richard Hertz?
Doug – Thanks for the additional feedback!
Regarding Mary Marvel, yes, DC seems to fall back on corrupting her over and over. However, I think “I Can’t Believe” might be the first instance of it!
Yes, thankfully the resurrected Tora in the BIRDS OF PREY series, which made her appearance in JUSTICE LEAGUE 3000/3001 make all the more sense. Great stuff!
Thanks for the kind words about the podcast, and for being part of the show! I appreciate all the support!
Well, that’s it folks! (more to this below). This is curtains for the JLI adjacent universe, and what a great episode, may I say even better than the comic itself? I hear Shag’s take on re reading (which I did too, as with Formerly, before the podcast because I haven’t come back in 20 years), I believe I was better prepared to the overall tone and thus enjoyed it quite a bit.
That said… I hear the misogyny and all around old fashioned claims and yeah, I have to agree but I’m hardly surprised. Historically Giffen & DeMatteis have been kind of old fashioned. General values, pop-culture references (mostly from the 70s or much, much earlier) and other related stuff were dated back in the eighties (and I was reading in real time, so it’s not current me commenting on that). It could be argued that it makes it kind of …timeless? Someone like Peter David, who I adore, always used far more on-point pop culture references, but now some of them read dated or very difficult to understand if you weren’t there. The treatment of women is appalling, but also other minorities (the jewish joke mentioned and don’t get me started on Cap’s lisp. I know it can be read Looney-Tooney, but it can also be read as a gay stereotype).
As for Guy… you hit it on the nail indirectly when you mentioned his characterization evolving into an “uncle” type. Well, the uncle behaves one way with the nephews and another with the nieces, unfortunately. Guy became “a man’s man”, which is fine in the sense of “upstanding guy” but it’s not a “people’s man”. Again, you mention bringing in Dr Jen (always welcome) but as a gay man, believe me, even the evolved guy is no friend or ally of mine.
That said, this is the best drawn Guy EVER. Boy, what magnificent work from Kevin. It’s Guy’s face and attitude, but with the “normal jerk” haircut instead of the bowl and so perfectly characterized and recognizable from panel to panel. A highlight for sure. And yeah, I fully subscribe to the ring as a construct in the alternate realities.
In all, I can enjoy this story as a bubble apart from what went on at DC before, during and after. Feigning madness, as they say. Survival tactic.
PS: I love the Dick Hertz BHH better.
Gus – As always, thank you so much for your insightful feedback! Your commentary always brightens my day, and I’ll miss seeing your comments shortly after each episode is released.
Regarding Guy and the “uncle” stereotype, it’s really not something to be forgiven. I’ve got an uncle who exemplifies this type of behavior, and we all made excuses for it. Well, it didn’t stop with his generation. His son has grown into the exact same behavior, so the unpleasant cycle continues.
And agree about Guy (and many others) looking better than ever! The mini-series is really a challenging thing as the art is off the charts amazing, the jokes are some of the funniest around, and yet some of the behavior is unforgivable. Makes for a tough balance, but I choose to love it regardless as the last long-form hooray of this beloved creative team on the JLI.
Thanks again for the feedback! It’s been a pleasure, sir!
ya know something wrong WHENEVER Dc uses Mary Marvel or juinor. Cuz we know they exist but no one needs to be sure why. Also were pretty sure someone has plans for cap
Thanks for the feedback, Rob. I’ve always felt that Jerry Ordway handled the Shazam family quite well in POWER OF SHAZAM, but your mileage may vary. Thanks again!
i’ve heard that! BUT it’s one many dcs I knew existed but only read the one in Greatest shazam stories, years later and that WAS good! What REALLY HACKS ME OFF is I missed Captain Marvel in San FRancisco That’s MY CITY!
Captain Marvel was in SF? I have no memory.
Power of Shazam is one of the greatest DC series of the Nineties. Heck, ever. The whole series, starting with the graphic novel, is on DC Infinite. Make time to try it.
No, no, I think Captain Marvel is more fantasy than science fic–oh, wait, you meant something else. Sorry!
Thinking on, I think he was in San Francisco in the post-Crisis Roy Thomas mini-series.
Cool podcast. I’m voting. Ricky Hurts for the BWhhhaaa! Award. K I’ll have more to say later.
Liz – Thanks for the feedback! And thanks for the “Dick Hertz” vote! Bwah-ha-ha!!
So, on the Mary Marvel of it all.
The first thing to note is that the evil sexy Mary Marvel business has at its root Alan Moore’s Twilight of the Super-heroes, which is probably the direct precedent for the alternate version here. But Moore’s was in a lot of ways the least gross one, since it’s set 20ish years in the future so they’re at least adults there.
From there it goes here and also to Morrison’s final crisis, which is by far the most gross version of the idea; DeSaad in full control of Mary’s body for however long the Darkseid reign there lasts.
And I think we go backwards from there to Countdown. The writers of that series had some kind of twenty-person game of telephone version of what they were trying to set up; they killed the New Gods twice, and they had Mary go evil sexy twice too. But it’s probably the least gross version, since the outfits are basically just cosplay, indicating that she has power from the Black Adam Shazam or Neron or whatever
Jeff – Thanks for the feedback and all the information! I’ve never read the details on Alan Moore’s Twilight of the Super-Heroes, but have always meant to. Might need to rectify that.
My recollection was Countdown to Final Crisis and Final Crisis were some of the least joyful comics I read in that era. Just not something I enjoyed. I appreciate all the info about Mary in those series and I really recall nothing.
Again, thank you for all the info, and your support over the years!
Huh, Mary “cosplaying” as her power source in Countdown sounds a lot like Black Alice’s whole thing.
Congratulatios on the final story, Michael made a great companion. I love this mini-series, even with those occasional problems. The fun, the adventure, L-Ron…
Michael was your musical director? It was fascinating to learn the story behind the two theme tunes, I’d always wondered where they were from – I had assumed they were from cheesy 80s TV superhero adventure shows I’ve never seen, Greatest America Hero or whatever.
Could Michael tell us some more about these 2004 meetings behind-the-scenes at DC about the de-sexualising of characters? This is new to me, it sounds interesting. As regards the sexualisation of Mary Marvel, your comments are entirely fair, but neither of you lads seemed to have a problem with the less-present, but similarly attired, Billy as Captain S&Marvel.
Am I wrong, I thought ‘Blackguard’ had the same pronunciation in the US as in the UK – Blaggard?
I’d give the Bwaa Ha Ha award to the wonderfully childish Dick Hertz cos heart conditions are a bit close to home!
Shag, given your response to Gene Hendrix in the comments section you can never again yourself Irredeemable, you’ve totally outgrown it. OK, keep it for ironic and historic reasons.
Michael is correct, Shag, the community that’s grown up around this show isn’t so much down to the comics as down to you. We all love the series but you’re the guy knitting us together as a group with your kindness, enthusiasm and Funky Flashman style benevolent hucksterism.
As regards the future, did you enjoy JLI 3000 enough to cover it in Once Upon a Geek?
Hi Mart – Thanks for listening and your kind words!! You make a good point about equal treatment to evil-Billy. My only excuse is that he wasn’t featured on the cover so provocatively as evil-Mary was, nor was he featured in the issue as much. And regarding my “irredeemable” status, I’ll hold onto my title, and related y’all do not want to know what goes through my head on a regular basis. Bwah-ha-ha!!
Thanks for voting for the Dick Hertz joke as the Bwah-ha-ha winner! Hooray!
Thanks for the kind words about the community and my role. I’m blushing. Thank you. I hope we have a chance to build a similar community around the upcoming JSA IN THE 90s show.
Thank you, Mart, for all your support over the years! Much appreciated!
Hey Shag,
As a comic nerd of a certain age, the idea of having & being part of a community around the JLI was always foreign to me. Growing up in the 80s, comics were not discussed, in polite company or otherwise. For years, despite the fact that the JLI was a For Real hit, I’d always felt like I was the only one who read the book & thought about what I loved & why it worked. It was a solitary interest. It sucked, but that’s the way it often was back then.
A few years back, I learned about your podcast. You cannot imagine how much of a thing that was for me. Someone else out there understood the One Punch joke? Someone else understood that a big dog in a Ralph Norton vest (And even my geek friends needed THIS one explained to them) was a Green Lantern? To know that other people were into this stuff was, in its way, seismic. There was a community built up around the JLI, and in its way, that’s important.
I cannot imagine what a gargantuan pain in the ass this podcast must have been for you. I never missed a single episode. You ever make it out of that hellhole known as Florida (It’s like Apokolips, but with more alligators) and up to Colorado, look me up. I owe you a beer. Thanks for the hard work & the good times.
Hi Tim – Thanks for the incredibly kind words! I sincerely appreciate hearing from you, and you sharing your story. For many, collecting comics was a solitary hobby. I was fortunate to start with comic collecting friends, and then find a local comic shop with fellow fans to continue to build upon.
If this podcast has helped create a sense of community for anyone, then I consider it a massive success!! Thank you for sticking with us on this long journey! Hope to see you around the Network with some of our other shows!
PS: I genuinely laughed out loud at your description of G’nort. 🙂 Thank you for that!!
So the latest issue of Superman features Beetle, Booster and a Bwa-Ha-Ha reference. (Actually, Booster’s trying to stifle himself, so it comes out as “Bwa-heh-heh”). The podcast may be ending but the JLI will never die!
Congrats on completing the podcast. I’ve been listening since episode one – that couldn’t possibly have been eight years ago?!?! I bailed on the JLI comics when it became apparent that neither Kevin Maguire nor Batman was going to come back and I’ve really enjoyed listening to the podcast and catching up on what I missed. Thank you for all of your efforts in doing this month after month.
Also, I vote for Dick Hertz. The way things are going, I’ll probably also give him a write-in vote come this November.
Hi Robert – Thanks for the feedback and for listening! I’m so happy you enjoyed the podcast. And thrilled to hear about the reference in Superman this months! Hooray!
And yes, you could have been doing better things with your ears for the past 8 years. Bwah-ha-ha!! Or should I say Bwah-heh-heh.
I vote for the Dick Hertz line too. As for the Mary Marvel thing, it would’nt have bothered me back then. Now? maybe it doesn’t hold up but I did like the black costume!
Hi Nathan – Thanks for listening and the feedback! Glad you voted for Dick Hertz as well! It cracks me up.
Thanks for listening! And hope you enjoy next months farewell episode. Thanks!
We’ve finally reached the second reunion mini-series. I wasn’t sure how the episode was going to go, but I think Michael and Shagg handled it well.
I didn’t pick this story up in the single issues of JLA Classified because these were still my college days. I picked it up a few years later in trade at a convention in half price bin. Normally I’d go for the single issues to thumb my nose at Dan Didio’s claims, but oddly enough the price of the trade was better.
I really enjoyed this story. I think I’m one of the few people who like Beetle’s reversed color scheme. I like to think of it as his “stealth suit”. But yes, it was weird seeing Sue, Max and Ted in this given what DC did to them around this time. The ending to the fourth issue still hits me even to this day. It hits harder as I’ve had to deal with grief the past two years and I’m not gonna lie, I was thinking about what I’d do in this situation with my Mom but I couldn’t look back and… I don’t think I could do it. I would look. It’s strange to think in almost twenty years I can look at that page of Guy and Bea crying and get emotional in two different ways decades apart. Let that be a testament to Maguire’s art.
Formerly felt like the TV reunion movie while I Can’t Believe felt like the TV movie send off. And I’m good with that.
…and then you have Justice League Generation Lost. but that could be this show’s version of a reunion podcast down the line.
Hi Jose – Thanks for listening and sharing your own personal feelings about loss. Completely understand your position.
I like your analogy of FKA as a TV reunion movie, and ICB as the TV send off. That works!
Thanks for your support all these years!
I vote dick hertz as well .
Also I forgot what the other choice so I’m going with shags choice . Also we a professor now . We one step closer to having are own Gillian’s island or would It shags island ? three cheers for shag !!!
Hi Bucky – Thanks for the vote of support with the Dick Hertz joke! Bwah-ha-ha!!
I just wanted to take this opportunity to thank you for all the work you’ve put into this show over the years. I was reading Marvel comics when JLI was on the stands, so, while I was aware of it, I never read any of it. As a result, I’ve enjoyed learning about the series through your discussions with your many wonderful guests.
Thank you for a great penultimate episode, and I look forward to your upcoming JSA series.
Hi Brian – Thank you for the kinds words! And it’s exciting to hear someone enjoyed the show even though they didn’t start as a JLI reader back in the day!
Thanks again, and thanks for following us over to JSA IN THE 90s!
Congratulations on finishing the run, and on yet another highly entertaining episode!
If you’ll allow me a little bit of bragging, I own some original art from this story…they’re two pages of Bea and Mary hanging out, with Mary trying coffee for the first time and getting completely caffeinated. I’m looking over the pages again as I write this, and I’ve just noticed a little detail I hadn’t picked up on before: In one panel, Bea tells Mary “Next to you, Martha Stewart is too ‘street.'” I noticed that the lettering of Martha Stewart’s name was pasted on, so I held the page up against the light to see if I could read the lettering underneath, and it looks like the original line was “Next to you, Elizabeth Dole is too street.”
I got to see Giffen, DeMatteis, and Maguire at the 2019 DragonCon, so I’m lucky to have had the chance to meet the entire team and have them sign those two pages as well as my copy of Justice League #1. (I only regret that I couldn’t fit a Dr. Fate sketch from Giffen into my budget–I’m kicking myself now for passing up that opportunity, but there were so many great artists at that particular convention that I couldn’t get all the sketches I wanted, and I DID get a sketch from Giffen when I saw him at another convention in the early ’90s, so that’s some consolation.)
Sorry, I asked permission for a little bit of bragging, and that turned out to be a LOT of bragging, didn’t it?
Hi Erich – Wow! Congratulations on owning that original art! So cool! And thanks for sharing the “Elizabeth Dole” alternate joke! Surprising! And funny how dates some references are.
And you are absolutely allowed to brag when the stories are that cool! Thanks for listening!
Gotta go into work, so I can’t talk long. I agree with everything Mike B said (including on which gag gets the award) — but mainly everything about your work on this podcast, Shag. I’ve tried podcasts about topics I liked with podcasters that did not offer the insights, the humor, or honestly even the production values of this series. Gus is right, too. At times, I enjoyed the episodes about the comic more than the comic. And good job navigating some rough moral terrain, too. Also, thank you for the opportunity to guest. It was a terrific experience — a great memory that I can fully relive anytime my phone is charged.
In closing, I don’t think you’ve peaked at all. With good material — i.e., material that’s fun, but still touching on important issues — you’ll do great again. Consequently, I am very much looking forward to the JSA podcast.
Hi Captain – Thank you for the incredibly kind words. I’m touched. And having you on the show was an absolute joy! As well as hanging out with you at HeroesCon last year! Unrelated, you really need better taste in podcast listening. ;P
Thanks again. Your kind words mean a lot to me, and thanks for following me over to JSA IN THE 90s!
If I ever want to listen to two middle-aged guys talk for a half hour about the objectification of mid-2000s female superheroes, I can always reference this episode. No one, and I mean NO ONE, is going to make me feel guilty about the way Kevin Maguire draws female characters. Is nothing sacred?
LOL! As I always say, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, John. 🙂
Thanks for listening and thanks for all your support with this podcast series!
Impressive podcast most impressive. Wow this is the second to last episode. Gonna be weird no JLI. Still JSA podcast should be good. Ah and Mikey Mike B. As the guest star. Cool. I like his Crisis to Crisis podcast. All 4 episodes for 4years he got done.,,. Kidding. I know why his shows take awhile. It’s life.
They are great shows too. On views from the long box. But back to talking about this awesome podcast. Oy I disagree with a lot of what you said on women men stuff in this but, we …. Are in lock step about Guy. WTF. At no point should a grown man act that way to a teenager. Just no.
Gross Fire should have set his pants on fire. Not to hurt just scare him with in an inch of his life. Or Ted should have ask to speak with him just out of sight and recreate the 1 punch moment. Just Oy. Guy had grown in the comics even under Griffin’s pen. But now he’s worst than ever?
This is not ok. And should never have been. And I have no kids but Oy. Moving on. The Fire being the one to look back is said, but fits. Glad Ice came back in the BOP Gale S. Run. Next. Ted’s new costume looks cool to bad about the issue that never should have happened. But. Whatever. Guy getting his ring back was cool. We’ll go with y’all’s no prize of how he got it.
Ah evil other world versions of the heroes was cool. Ah Gnort- zilla classic bit. Over all a great comic sad to hear the next issue will be the last, but will lesion to the JSA podcast. K tootals
Soon, no JLI, no JLU, no Super-Friends on the network.
You can take away my butter, but don’t take away my bread!
Liz – Thanks for your comments and support all these years! And thanks for giving JSA IN THE 90s a try!
Ugh, I am SO FAR BEHIND! And what do I see? 45 comments already?! Geez, Louise!
I love this mini series. And yet, it must suffer from being the last installment and filed with the rest of my JLA Classified issues that I haven’t re-read it as much. Going thru it again didn’t have any big surprises, I know it too well for that. But the emotional moments are even stronger because I haven’t gotten as used to them. The greatest are Ted and Kara being friends, and the final page from issue 4. Lord, it still wrecks me. Maguire pulling out all the stops.
Maybe someone else has mentioned this (I’m too lazy to check), but on issue 4’s next to last page, Guy looks really angry, and you’d think he’s going to attack Bea. But somehow, it turns into only anger that they’ve lost Tora again, and all he can do is hug the one other person feeling as bad as he does, which makes that final page punch your gut all the more. Wow.
And now I want to re-read the mini again. Ugh! Well, it’s ok, I’ll do it when I get to my complete JLI read-through that I’m hankering to do not that the podcast is wrapping. It’ll be nice to revisit it rapid fire after reliving the monthly pace.
Congrats, Shagg. This was a huge accomplishment, and you’ve done an exemplary job, and other words I totally didn’t need to look up. As I’ve said before, this show got me to listen to podcasts, leading to so many friendships and starting my little show as well, all blame-I mean-thanks to you. As Dmitri would say, “Well done, buddy!”
Hi Tim – Great point about Guy’s look and the build to the final page of issue #4. Just powerful stuff!
Thank you for your support all these years, being our official historian, and for being on the show! If the JLI Podcast played even a small role in helping put you on the path to launching your own fantastic shows, then I’m honored!
Thanks, pal!!
Now that it’s all over and everyone’s offered their heartfelt gratitude and tearful farewells, I feel comfortable finally saying… an hour for each 22 page comic? Really? And I agree with Michael Bailey that the theme song sounds super-heroic, which is why it never felt like it fit this bunch of losers. The JLI needed something like the Seinfeld bee-bopping and scatting to announces that they were a bunch of chuckleheads. That said, I look forward to the first episode of JSA in the ’90s opening to the strains of Mannheim Steamroller’s “Shake a Shillelagh (for Saint Patrick)” or whatever.
You guys are overthinking the Guy Gardner ring thing. Clearly, between Green Lantern: Rebirth #1 page 16 panel 3 and Green Lantern: Rebirth #2 page 15 panel 1, Guy escaped from the JLA Watchtower while under the medical observation of Martian Manhunter, Mr. Terrific, Dr. Mid-Nite, and Green Arrow to seek out the yellow power ring of Sinestro to transition from Vuldarian back to human, then had the entire Super Buddies adventure in a single night, then lost the ring on the way back to the Watchtower while covered in hell juice and regressing back to Vuldarian, snuck back onto the hospital table on the moon, and then received a replacement Green Lantern power ring from Ollie. Simple. Or, they’re all stories by different people who don’t always agree on the details.
I picked up Comics Interview #66 from 1989 with the JLI cover story. In the interview with Ty Templeton, he explained that his run was actually a fill-in that kept expanding. He doesn’t actually like doing mainstream super-hero comics and wanted to just keep doing Stig’s Inferno, but couldn’t afford it. He frankly stated that he only did JLI for the money and exposure, but had a good time and wasn’t planning on leaving. He liked that Giffen solved a lot of the storytelling for him, and despite having the latitude to change things if he felt he had a better take, recognized that Giffen’s storytelling was so good that it usually won out. In the Giffen & Helfer interview, they explain that they needed to make each book they wrote different enough from each other to keep themselves interested, and that the more serious take on JLE was a conscious choice. They seemed to think that they were going to work out their problems over Wonder Woman usage with George at the time. Also, they’d run out of characters with cancelled books, and simply had to answer to other people when using Flash, Animal Man, etc. Fire & Ice were brought into the book to set up JLE, but then they didn’t make the move, so Giffen decided to create some new foreign characters instead. There was more, but those bits stood out to me as unique observations.
I also completed my set of Four Color Magazine with May 1987’s fifth issue. It featured 30 Questions with Kevin Maguire from early in his run. He had a mustache and a mullet at the time, pictured playing with Super Powers action figures. His favorite movies include Lethal Weapon, Goldfinger, Superman, Terminator, Road Warrior, Empire, Raiders, BTTF, and Carnal Knowledge. He hoped to become a film director someday. He drew Sean Connery all the time as a kid, and a lot of his characters start off as Sean before taking a turn. He saw Blue Beetle as a cross between Michael Keaton and Bruce Willis, but would cast Keaton. Robert Hays as Mr. Miracle. “Guy Gardner is his own personality so no one can be him.” Then he backtracked and said John Glover. Doug Barr as Captain Marvel. Theresa Russell as Black Canary. David Rappaport as Oberon. Nick Mancuso as Batman, and Richard Moll as Martian Manhunter. Maguire stopped reading comics as a kid. He planned to design a sexier costume for Black Canary after Grell was through using her in Longbow Hunters, and generally wanted more women on the team to draw. He also wanted a crack at Hawkman, and eventually, Black Widow, Sub-Mariner, and Doctor Strange. He was envious of Marshall Rogers getting to draw Silver Surfer alone in space, instead of a whole super-team. Giffen hated laying out fight scenes, and Maguire loved it, so he tended to take charge there. At one point, he stood against Keith’s childlike characterization of Captain Marvel, on account of the “S” standing for Solomon, and DeMatteis backed Maguire on it. Everyone was under a 12 issue contract for the first year working on the book.
Okay, finally communicated that. I’m not rereading to copy edit. It’s not like you’re going to read it, right?
1) I totally read all of this. And I’ve been expecting your grousing about an hour podcast for 22 pages! LOL! I remember your old 22-minute-podcast-for-a-22-page-comic philosophy from several years ago.
2) Your theory about Guy Gardner sneaking out between panels of GL Rebirth totally tracks. You nailed it.
3) You grumpy old bastard.. thank you for coming along on this journey and for being part of the show. It meant the world to me. You play the part of the jaded old fan, but your comments prove you still love this stuff. Virtual hugs, buddy!
I can’t believe there’s not going to be a JLI podcast anymore!
I could comment on the content of this episode, but I just don’t have it in me. It was great, and entertaining, and you both made great points – but that is what this show has been doing this entire time. It’s consistently great. The guests are always good. The conversation is always fun. It’s easily on of my favorite podcasts, and really, it’s kind of my first podcast.
I was never a podcast listener until one day I saw a tweet about an interview with JM that you were doing at the midway point of the show. And at first, I kind of shrugged it off. “Bwah-ha-ha? How corny!” But, as a JM fan, I wanted to check it out. So, I bookmarked it on Spotify and just kind of resisted starting it. Like I said, podcasts just weren’t my thing.
I finally went to the page for this show, with the intent on just listening to the interview, and I could not believe how many episode there were and how long ago it all started. I mean, what was it like to record episodes when Pan Am was still in business? Anyway, as I scrolled down the page, I saw all the familiar covers and the endorphins just started firing off in my brain. (is that a saying?) JLI was probably my favorite DC book for a long time, but I hadn’t picked it up, or thought about it, or any other comic book, in a long, long time. I had this love of comics, but, because of things that have happened, that nerd dream of sharing this part of me with my kids just was never going to be, and I kind of put it all away to focus on more adult thing. (ooo, this might be foreshadowing!)
So I bit the bullet and I went back and listened to the first few episodes. And then I listened to a few more. And it reawakened this love I have for all this stuff. And to hear so many other people share their own connection with a comic book that I loved that was over 30 years old….it felt special. Like I found this magical place. It really did. Who’s corny now!
I eventually went over to the Fire & Water website, and my mind was blown. Which is really dumb. I mean, of course there are hundreds of podcasts about comics and movies and tv shows and music. Not exactly a novel thing in 2022. And yet….all this stuff that resonated with me on a very personal level being discussed regularly on shows and in comment sections and on a discord blew me away……and suddenly I am reading comic books again. I’m listening to music more frequently. I’m watching more movies. I’m reading more books.
This podcast really woke up this part of me that has been asleep for a long, long time. And anyone I got to meet, or talk to, or listen to on any of the shows here, or shows that guests and other listeners make, is all because of The JLI Podcast. I truly am the dentist who crashed the convention, and I am loving all the food and drinks, and I only got in because you opened the door for me.
So thanks for this really wonderful show that I cherish more than I could probably describe, and thanks for all the work you put in to it over the years. As a listener, you can tell how much thought and effort went into what you did here. Ans last, but not least, thanks for reintroducing me to that joy I thought I left behind.
There’s a quote by…I want to say C.S. Lewis? I think, that goes something like “When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret. Now I am fifty and I read them openly.” which is more about losing that self-consciousness you can have for not appearing to be and adult, or a grown up, and realizing you can embrace that joy of childish things. I think I had become so obsessed with passing this down to the next generation of Pine’s that hopefully, one day, would crash dentist conventions, that it got in the way of me being able to enjoy these things for myself. This show gave me that back. I’ll be eternally grateful.
Now, my wife on the other hand, not that thrilled when I began to dig out all my old comic boxes and take over the spare room with it all, or happy about how I now walk around oblivious to her calling my name because I have my airpods in. So, she might want to file a complaint with the management here.
Chris – I’m so glad you found the JLI Podcast and became part of the family. You may have only joined us in the latter years of the show, but your comments have always been insightful and often stay with me. I sincerely appreciate your feedback and am thrilled to have a Dentist-Convention-Crasher as part of the gang
Thank you for sharing your story of how you found the podcast! That’s a joy to hear! And I’m honored to have played a small role in reawakening the comic joy in you!
Please tell your wife she can direct all complaints to Rob Kelly of the Fire & Water Podcast Customer Relations Department. 🙂
Irish embassy calling and……wait a minute, why am I not at the embassy but instead squeezed beside a laundrette and a haberdashery? Have I been away that long?!?!?!
(Sorry for not replying last few episodes – life and work unfortunately got in the way).
Really enjoyable show Shagg and Mike and a very good review of the second “Super-Buddies” mini-series, bringing in both Guy and Power Girl into the mix. The story had some excellent humour and some surprisingly deep sections involving Tora. Minor continuity issues aside (where did Guy get that yellow ring?), it was an excellent story and it was a pity we could have not seen another JLI mini-series with Giffen, de Matteis and Maguire again (notwithstanding the 80s retrospective that came around later).
I am looking forward to hearing Shagg’s retrospective of the JLI in the (gulp) last episode of the JLI podcast. I honestly felt the JLI members got short shrift after the end of teh Bwa-ha-ha series, even though a lot of the same characters continued in the JLI/JLE/JLA books after Giffen/De Matteis/Maguire left. Jurgens run was quite good; however, it was really Justice League Superman rather than Justice League America, with Superman really dominating that book until Doomsday arrived. At least the stories there were good whereas the JLE stories were trying way too hard to follow a Mosaic-type format that didn’t suit it.
What was disappointing was how a lot of the characters became sidelined after they left the League. Sure, there were some highlights of characters that showed how good they were – Dixon made great use of Beetle in the Birds of Prey series, as did Rucka with Fire in the Checkmate series. And of course, Booster got his return to form in 52 and his own series thereafter. But with these came low points like Crimson Fox and Rocket Red being unceremoniously killed, as was Beetle in Countdown to Infinite Crisis. What was worse about Beetle’s offing was (1) that the issue showed what a great character he was leading up to his killing; and (2) how he was treated by J’onn in that issue. At least the deaths of Beetle and Ice were subsequently reversed (Although Beetle’s revival was just presented as a fait accompli without any story to it).
I would like to thank Shagg for all the work he has put into the JLI podcast series – every month, he and his guests rolled back the years to show how much the JLI was one of the best series ever done. Every podcast was always entertaining, funny and respectful and while it is sad that it is ending, at least Shagg will be following it up with JSA in the 90s, which I am sure be every bit as good as the JLI podcast. Thanks again Shagg for having me on as a guest – I really enjoyed talking to you about JLE 11 and it was great to be part of such a great series. Thanks also for making me part of the JLE trailer you produced, just being asked to say Elongated Man was such a….
Wait a second…..Elongated Man?
SHAGG….ARE YOU SAYING THAT I AM A FOUR?!?!?!?!?!
Bwa-ha-ha!!
Looking forward to the ultimate episode of the JLI podcast.
PS: I remember you and Michael were wondering why L-Ron had no head in the last issue – I believe that was a result of L-Ron “complimenting” Guy on his Judy Garland impression and Guy reacting as you would imagine!!!
Hi Jimmy – Always fantastic to hear from the Irish Embassy, and I’ve always cherished your gags!! So much fun. It’s been a staple of the show over the years. And having you on the show was a thrill!
By the way, if you get a chance, listen to the JLI/WHO’S WHO episode. I play a clip from 2015, which was the origin of the JLI Podcast, and you played somewhat of a role in the discussion!!!
Your Elongated Man joke above about the trailer and being a 4 genuinely cracked me up! Bwah-ha-ha!!
Hope you enjoy the last episode! I don’t really spend time talking about where the characters went after the JLI, more focused on producing the show and some of my favorites from the run.
Thanks again for all the support!
Figure that we finally get a near-perfect scene with Power Girl just as the comic and podcast are coming to an end!
I went from the era of One Punch, I’m sure Shag is happy he never has to use that sound effect ever again, to this, so my view on Guy is coloured by this portrayal rather than the more nuanced one of those that went the long way around. Same for
The whole podcast has been an amazing experience with some amazing guests, and also somehow me, and I look forward to the exciting future with the JSA
Hi Symbol Pending – Thanks for your feedback! And yes, Power Girl in “I Can’t Believe” was fantastic! Thankfully Giffen & DeMatteis seem to have taken their lead from how she was portrayed in the JSA comic. It really was a great appearance by her!
Thank you for all your support and feedback over the years, as well as your fantastic appearance on the show!
It’s been a thrill to get to know you, and look forward to interacting more with the JSA Podcast!