Our coverage continues of JSA in the 90s with Terry O’Malley and The Irredeemable Shag discussing JUSTICE SOCIETY OF AMERICA #5 (Dec 1992) by Len Strazewski, Mike Parobeck, Mike Machlan, Matt Banning, and Jeff Albrecht! JSA and friends battle against the Ultra-Humanite; Johnny Thunder reveals the mystery of his absence; and Hourman struggles with his son’s illness. Finally, we wrap up with YOUR listener feedback!
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1 Does’nt the Wizard HAVE to the greatest jsa foe cuz he’s not a retcon? ULTRA Humanite is a superman foe. IF you read golden age Superman he needed Good foes. I know he had golden age Luthor but I’VE not read the one with power stones. Everybody says thats good!
2 dont get me wrong I like PER degaton and objectively he IS A golden age bad guy but ROB MCCarthy never said so cuz Rob always says “The golden age ends with WW2 THAT’S IT thats all that’s the rule. That does NOT REALLY work BUT if you dont stop there you can GO NUTS TRYING to figure out where you DO STOP. If you have read any comics from 1947 it’s totally different from 1941 The Heap is not from the same industry that made Captain America.
3. Another good reason to like the Wizard is I think he inspired the Warlock from the 60s Superman cartoon
4. I always call the Fantastic four by their first names.
When I think of the Wizard I always think of America vs the Justice Society of America, which is why I’m not opposed to him being the JSA’s greatest foe in some respects. That mini-series changed my mind on the character. I’m shocked we got him in live action…somewhat…in Stargirl. We also got the Ultra Humanite, too.
Hi, Shagg,
Great show, and thanks to Terry. Spot on analysis. I only caught one boob boo in this reread. After the big fight, Wildcat seems to be a bit injured, and Al is consoling him – their word balloons seemed to be switched. But, hey, lots of characters and action to juggle.
I’m so glad to see the first appearance of Jesse Quick, but I’ve always been disappointed that the young Bahdnisian lady was never made into a continuing character. Thanks to both of you for the defense of Johnny T. There’s a fine line that is walked when you create an audience identification/wish fulfilment/comic relief character such as Johnny. Sometimes you hit the bingo, such as Dick Grayson or Bucky Barnes. But often readers don’t want what they see in the mirror, and you get stuck with cousin Olivers, like Snapper Carr, Danny Chase or tragically, a Jason Todd, and dialing fingers start up. (no names mentioned…you know who you are.) Johnny rose just a squidge higher, but not much and often draws fan ire. But he wasn’t a sidekick – he started with his own feature, right behind the Flash and Hawkman, and his place in the JSA was locked in when he introduced the team in All-Star #3. When enrolled in the JSA, its easy to ret-con why he was admitted so early. He was recognized as holding great power, with not much idea on what to do with it. In the JSA, Dr. Fate and the Spectre could keep an eye on him and shepherd that power. His personality had to be endured, and that grated on modern readers. Still, here in the 1990s, comics were experimenting with the flaws in super-heroes, and had Parobeck been allowed to carry on, we may have seen something done with that dynamic. Geoff Johns might tinker with it, but sorry, I can’t see that far into the retroactive future!
Haven’t listened to most of the episode, but I did jump to the listener feedback to address podcaster feedback to my listener feedback for more listener feedback to this podcast.
If “The End” really had come last issue, would we have really missed anything? Ultra-Ultra-Humanape, I guess. Green Lantern bemoaning his impotence against a wooden shield & bludgeon is not making the best impression. I wish they would figure out Alan Scott’s hairline already.
Is it just me, or was the anatomy kind of horned-up this issue. Lots of young women in skintight jeans and bike short positioned just so? I realize Rex Tyler is a man out of time, but his pants are cut for the disco. Even Ted Grant gets into the action, rubbing his furry thighs from a worm’s-eye few of his wildcakes. This team needs a Black Canary to pour this energy into.
Also on the art front, the inking was so distracting that I had to flip back to the credits to confirm that three different dudes were on those duties. Machlan is still Ordwaying, but it seems to be tempered, and the other two seem to have more fidelity to Parobeck’s line (though one over-corrects to simplify them further, to a Tothian place.) It’s an odd mix of styles, but I’m not mad about it.
I’m getting used to Furrybolt, but it still takes an effort. I did a dive into Johnny Thunder for my contribution to JSApril, and I liked him less for the effort. I thought the dementia angle started here, but instead he’s a passive income nouveau riche frogurt king? Not helping, especially when his visit to Dinah Lance’s grave just feels like another violation that she has no say in.
I did answer the question, Shag. What would DC be publishing without Crisis? Not much of anything. During the Crisis, when Earth-2 was still a going concern, All-Star Squadron’s average annual sales were under 70K, including the newsstand. A-SS and Infinity Inc. were selling comparable numbers in the direct market, so whether or not Crisis messed up Roy’s stories, those stories weren’t selling. Earth-2 was a gangrenous limb that had to be severed to save the rest of the body. Without Crisis, all of the DC Earths perish. We maybe get a Watchmen with the actual Charlton characters, because DC isn’t publishing monthlies anymore. If you insist on my speculating about a theoretical continued existence of Earth-2 into the ’90s, I don’t care about that. I’m a proponent of the DC Multiverse for pretty much everything but Earth-2, because even as a kid I couldn’t make sense of sustaining it on its own. If you have the greatest heroes of World Wart II, I don’t need another Earth where they had their adventures separate from the JLA, because they’re already separated by time. Just keep Wonder Woman an immortal who served on both teams, and maintain Superman and Batman’s reverence for old timers who preceded them. If you’re desperate to keep Helana Wayne and E2 Dick Grayson, make them the descendants of other Golden Age characters. It’s not that hard, and doesn’t diminish the characters. I didn’t start to like those characters until the Earths integrated. The real loser in a consolidated Earth is The Marvel Family, not the JSA.
Love the cover. This is what I think of when I think of this new iteration of the Ultra-Humanite. It’s a shame this look didn’t stick around. Also, when it comes to the members of the JSA, you’re right! We often refer to them by their real names. I like to think because we’re so connected to the team and their members, we’re comfortable calling them Jay, Alan, Ted, and so on. If that’s not a sign that we cherish these characters, I don’t know what is.
When comes to greatness JSA villains I have to with vandal savage he was the first one I read and the times I’ve seen him in animation in the brave the bold cartoon and JLU have made him in mind a top tear bad guy . But I honestly thought because of Brave the bold for a while Vandal was spouse to be booster golds arch enemy as well . I forgot the title of JSA book I read but I know Mr America was it and vandal savage killed his family and framed him .
Fun but contentious episode! Terry seemed to be a lil angry. I think Terry would argue with Shag on ANYTHING. If Shag said the sky was blue, Terry would say “No, it’s periwinkle.” Made for a very entertaining show.
I’m not really a fan of the art in this story but that splash page of Humanite coming up at Alan while the rest of the JSA rushes towards him, is absolutely gorgeous! Keep up the good work and I can’t wait for next months episode!
Great show, Shag and Terry! My vote for greatest JSA villain still goes to the Ultra-Humanite. I like the combination of devious intellect and brute strength in this form and especially his gorilla incarnation.
This issue had some standout bits, namely Rex dealing w/ his addiction and the Wally/Jessie dynamic. And I frequently refer to most of the DC main characters by their first name (Clark, Diana, Bruce, Barry, Hal, etc.) I do that w/ the X-Men as well, but not so much w/ the other Marvel characters. I love Captain America, but he is always Cap and never Steve.
Looking forward to JSApril!
What a terrific show, I loved the energy of Shag and/vs Terry.
Terry’s reasoning as to why he loves the Wizard was fascinating, I may have to reread SSoV with that in mind.
I liked how firm Terry was about problems with the scripting, and he was right. But you were entirely correct on the skin tones issue, Shag. Then again, I am with Terry on the blob business, that page was not clear at all to me, there was no indication the blob was moving- what you’re happy to file away as ‘minutiae’ can be a roadblock in the storytelling.
I think it’s fair to say Jonny had a crush on Black Canary, I mean look at that first story, he was lovesick puppy.
I’m a bit torn on this one. I’m very much a believer that having guests with opposing opinions makes for more interesting listening, but this was so *aggressive,* it frankly made me uncomfortable for large sections of the podcast. It’s not that I thought Terry was always wrong. Often, such as his reasoning behind the Wizard as the greatest JSA foe, he was very compelling. But other times (such as his dismissal of Shag’s reasoning for Per Degaton as outside the scope, simply because Shag commented that Degaton was a threat to the whole world), Terry seemed petty and looking to argue just to argue. It seemed unnecessary, and I enjoyed this episode less as a result.
Agreements all around about how Jessie Quick was drawn, though. I seldom say I could develop a crush on a comic book character, but I have no reservations about saying it here.
Johnny Thunder came clean about his unrequited feelings for Dinah back in that mind-blowing JLA/JSA crossover that revealed JLA Dinah was the daughter of original Dinah. So I don’t blame either of your for forgetting that!
I have to agree with Terry on the Wizard, if only because, as Terry pointed out, he did indeed take out Superman for like a whole year or something, story-time. Long enough for Clark Kent to take up Superman’s heroic crusade through his journalism, and Lois to fall for him!
And I have to agree with Shag that the skin tone choices were horrid even in 1992.
So you’re both pretty.
Also, the mid-issue finale and jumping into another storyline is straight out of Fantastic Four #50, which suprisingly ends the Galactus saga mid-issue!
I sold all of my comics around 15 years ago to fund my divorce. I love that this show is allowing me to relive the joy I had reading them. There was a mini series I hope you get to where the JSA split into teams of 2 during ww2. I don’t remember much about it other than I loved it. The teams were Flash and Mr Terrific, Green Lantern and Johnny Thunder, Wonder woman and Hawkgirl. There were others of course but my memory isn’t what it once was. I truly hope that you cover it soon. Terry Sloan ripping “Fair play” off of his tunic over the bombing of Dresden truly got to me.
Ah, sounds like you’re talking about the Justice Society Returns series. A great series but it upset some fans with the ending. DC made us believe we were getting a classic JSA post war followup series but instead we got a bait and switch with a modern day JSA. Also a good series, but not what DC seemed to be hinting at.
I want to believe it would have sold. If not, then they could done the modern day version.
It’s clear to me that Terry loves the JSA so much that he only wants the best for them. It’s like having that critical teacher at school who challenged you in the 10% you got wrong in a test when you scored 90% was top of the year and are currently on track to go to college. Was he wrong? Probably not, was he mostly unforgiving in the issues with the pacing the scripting and art and colour? Sure and maybe it sounded like he wasn’t finding Joy in this but I think he was in his own way.
But feel free to correct me on that Terry!
As for the issue at hand, it’s still fun it’s still the JSA and we still had everyone’s favourite soft touch* Teacher cheering it on the whole way with Shag defending the honour of the creative team. And the key element of comics is a) how much can I sell this on eBay according to the Wizard Price Guide and b) Did this entertain me and was it value for the time and money involved … And despite any flaws this or any other book in this run have – I enjoyed it and it wasn’t a waste of time or money (had this been $5 book that might change my view on the money front).
I actually enjoy the split story format where you finish off one tale in the first half and transition into the second tale. I know plenty of comic books and TV shows do the whole “You have to imagine how much time has passed between stories” but it’s nice to be shown once in a while. And almost helps explaining why Comic time is different to real time. If an issue is monthly but the contents only cover a few days including the story gap suddenly you can see why people haven’t aged properly or had kids who grow up and go to college etc. I have no problem with the age of Black Canary and her Daughter and the same goes with Jessie Quick and her parents. If I can believe a man can fly I’m okay with time and ages not making perfect sense.
Talking of not making sense, Per Degaton as the JSA greatest Villain? While it’s clear he hates them he never felt like a great villain, but I guess he is the one that is most associated with the JSA regardless and the fact he likes to act and dress like a nazi/fascist doesn’t hurt.
I always considered Brainwave to be a better match for the JSA than Per Degaton. But my top choice would also have been Ultra Humanite – sure he is a Superman Villain but was not just a proto Lex Luthor? The ASS changes and then the Gorrila body make it work much better as he is as long lasting as the JSA while the likes of Luthor has to be associated with whatever age Superman is.
As for the whole what would happen if Crisis hadnt happened… I contractually obligated not to mention my thoughts outwith DC Dave and my podcast.
Anyway great show to listen to it was fun to have a change of pace with challenge of the super friends (I presume Shag and Terry are still friends) element.
*not THAT type of soft touch kids, that’s always wrong!
Unpopular opinions: According to Terry, Mike Parobeck’s art is too 90s.
Impressive podcast most impressive. Ah so that’s what happened to Jonny Thunder. Anyway the cove looks good. Though Cindy Franklin maybe miffted at you for not having her on for this one. Still since the guy you had on does the music to the show her and her hubby do ya May skate by.
The covers cool. Ah yep the gorilla body is back. I like that the covers done in one point perspective and yet eye catching, yeah the thunder bolt looks weird here.
Ah Flash and Jesse flirting interesting considering when she got speed powers they didn’t flirt at all. She. She was part of team Flash in Wades run. Moving on Wally and Jays working together is cool. Next yeah much like Elon the Ultra humantie is a horses back side just like Allan Scott said. The team visiting Johnny at the hospital was cool. Though yeah y’all right his stepdaughter being magenta doesn’t work. Hmm I only have one outfit complaint course if I went three all the JSA civilian looks we’d be here all day. lol
So onto ultra humanities outfit geez loos like Super Man redesign his outfit by Elton John when he was drunk? Anyway can’t wait for the next episode.
Let’s see, any of my thoughts already covered by the previous commenters. Word balloon swap for Al and Ted? Yep. Flash and Jesse? Yep. Riled up podcasters? Yep. Ok, that’s it for me. Thanks for the fun show!
Personally I like a confrontational guest, as long as it’s done with some respect and a genuine love of the materially, so this worked for me. Though I can get why some might see it as stradling that line a litt bit!
I am disappointed that with no irony you asked about any other team who used first names, then went on to talk about the JLI without connecting the two. Have they begun to fade from you mind that quickly? 😀
And obviously the JSA need a younger blonde woman to keep them in check, though Jesse (as good as she is) wouldn’t be my own personal choice!
“Johnny Quick 2”?! Johnny Quicker was right there.
Per Degaton, Ultra-Humanite, and Vandal Savage seem like the right top 3 to me. Of course, my 80s JSA experience was the JLA crossovers and All-Star Squadron, which definitely colors it for me.
I’m glad you mentioned the pacing. It was a little weird having the Ultra-Humanite story wrap up so early in the issue, but, as you guys said, their hospital visit was so fun that it didn’t matter.
So fun to see the 3 speedsters in this issue. This series came out during my comics hiatus of the early 90s, so I hadn’t seen this before. I actually thought Jesse first appeared in Flash post-Zero Hour.
Say, you should do another episode next month. Wait, you are…Thunderbolt came through. Woo!
Great show, fellas. I will make sure I steer clear of Terry’s lawn.
The more I look at Parobeck’s art, the more I’m impressed with the unique approach he took, especially in the 90’s. He ignored the trend of over-detailed poster images that made little story-telling sense to bring the reader into the story. His “camera angles” were purposefully done to make the reader feel like he/she is with the characters. The close ups and points of view place the viewer directly into the story as a passive observer. It’s so clever but unfortunately unappreciated by many at that time.
I had no idea that the magenta skin was supposed to indicate that character’s ethnicity. I’ve been waiting five issues for an explanation of why Dr. Mid-Nite has an alien for an assistant. I assumed she was a character from Infinity Inc. or something.
Well, that was a slightly stressful listen! I know you & Terry like to disagree, but the conflict over every plot point felt – well – a little too much to me. No one likes to see mommy & daddy argue all the time; sometimes they need to kiss and make up.
Okay… that got weird. I retract my metaphor.
Re: plot pacing & writing for the trade. There are different styles of writing on show in the different issues of this book. The single focus on the “Dr Midnite/Atom/Wildcat vs Ultrahumanite” fight in the last issue would be typical of the narrative you might see in a movie, whilst the writing in this issue had a main A plot (finishing off the Ultrahumanite fight), progressed a B plot (Jonny Thunder’s hospitalisation and flashback) and teased a new C plot (all the stuff with Rex Tyler); this would be more typical of what you might see in a soap opera or similar long form drama.
Neither is “wrong”, just different styles for different types of story. The fact that Len Strazewski is writing in the A plot/B plot / C plot style, makes me think that he *isn’t* writing for a trade and is setting up his pieces on the board for a long running series. Perhaps if he knew how criminally short this run would be, he might’ve made a different choice?
Re: Skin colour. We have some wonderfully evocative medical terms to describe the colour of skin and skin rashes. You’re probably familiar with “jaundiced” when the skin tone is yellow, but you may not know about “erythematous” (Brenda Pope Pronunciation Guide: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/erythematous ) which means red skin, or – my personal favourite “violaceous” (Brenda Pope Pronunciation Guide: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/violaceous) which means a purple coloured skin rash. However, I’m not sure there’s a technical term for the colour of Dr Soliz’s epidermis!
Let’s be charitable – this book must’ve been on the cusp of digital colouring and all the different hues that would soon become available. It’s great that the JSA cast of supporting characters is inclusive of characters who aren’t all white caucasian, and these darker pinks & purples have historically acted as a comic shorthand for people of different ethnicities (Tom Kalmaku, anybody?). But that bright magenta is… a choice, and in retrospect perhaps not the greatest.
This is the second show in a row you’ve singled me out as “Least Likely To Be Named on the Podcast”, and it’s not that I’m not flattered, but is this a cunning Shag ploy to get me to write more comments?
It worked, didn’t it. Dammit.