JSA in the 90s – JSApril with a Spotlight on Post-Crisis and the JSA inspiring the JLA

Another new episode of JSA IN THE 90s PODCAST for #JSApril!  This time it’s a Spotlight episode covering Post-Crisis and the JSA inspiring the formation of the JLA!  J David Weter and The Irredeemable Shag discuss significant Post-Crisis continuity retcons, with special focus on JLA: INCARNATIONS #1 (2001)! 

 

 

 

 

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17 responses to “JSA in the 90s – JSApril with a Spotlight on Post-Crisis and the JSA inspiring the JLA”

  1. Like many old guys, I had stopped reading most comics by the 90s. And at one time, I had almost an entire run of the original JLA. It was definitely my favorite. From the gallery posts and your discussion, it sounds like this would have been a series I would have liked. I might have to check it out.

    About the only thing I have to add might be some Monday morning quarterbacking about the choice of villain. Golden age villain Kulak much better fits the hate motif than Wotan does. His entire deal in the GA was pretty much being a sort of harbinger of hate. But then again, he isn’t as well known as Wotan.

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  2. First off I’ve got the flash showcase volume one and that opens with a golden age flash story then Barry Allen reading the comic in what assume is his first story .
    Now Dave’s tatoo ideas :
    1. Go full red tornado and put the ma hunkle red
    Tornado on your other Leg then we can call him Mr. Tornado.
    2. Go western and get a batlash or one of Dc’s other western characters.
    3. Dr midnight with his owl then you’ll two members of the jsa three if you count the owl
    4. Last idea black hawk I’ve never seen a tatoo of him and if so just the logo you tell people it’s either black hawk or hawk man cause they have the same logo .
    Hopefully Dave likes my ideas .
    Happy Easter to one and all

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  4. This was a really fun idea for an episode! IMO, Wotan makes a perfect villain to face the combined JLA and JSA. He was both a scientific genius and a master of black magic just as the members of the JSA had more of a mystical background (Doctor Fate, Thunderbolt, GL, Spectre, Golden Age Hawkman) and the members of the JLA were based more in sci-fi (Hal Jordan, Barry Allen, Ray Palmer, Thanagarian Hawkman).

    And I always imagined an intercompany crossover in which Thor met Wotan and declared something like, “Thou art not my All-Father, villainous impostor!”

    Thanks again, Shag, for all the work on JSApril. It’s been a blast.

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  5. Having recently researched “The Last Days of the Justice Society of America” for my part in #JSApril, I wouldn’t have said that Roy Thomas was “cowardly” for writing the JSA out the way he did. “Selfish,” perhaps, in that he saw the writing on the wall suggesting that editorial was determined to put them out to pasture (much as was the case with Zero Hour… and I might use the word “spiteful” of the editorial teams in both instances), and so actively requested to be the person to write the story before they asked someone else to do it. And, as I suggested in my blog entry on the topic, I do feel that this allowed for a potential excuse to keep the JSA members active in “the present day” despite being anchored to WWII that, bluntly, hasn’t been taken advantage of enough in the years since. (Side question: Did I misunderstand you guys… or was it the Sandman folks?… I listened to both back-to-back… when you were talking about Sandman? He was indeed in that story, and definitely left in limbo at the end of that story, and thus had the same de-aging that the other members had. It just didn’t stop him from having a heart attack shortly after their return.)

    I’ll also chime in on the whole “was Crisis necessary?” thing. The first thing to understand about me is that I’m a Transformers fans. Transformers fans *get* the concept of parallel worlds and multiple continuities. We have to deal with a new one every few years (arguably more often than DC fans these days). So, no, I don’t think kids were anywhere near as confused as the editorial opponents of the multiverse argued (I do think that it was clearly confusing to many of the *writers,* however!), and the idea of parallel Earths has always fascinated me. But the primary goal of any publisher is to sell books, and there’s really no denying that Crisis (*including* all of the changes it wrought) was a significant shot in the arm for DC’s sales for quite a few years to come. Hence, I have little patience for certain podcasters acting like it was some personal insult that DC did away with the multiverse (and that just for the time, as later events make obvious). We have a lot of the stories we have because this was the choice that was made, for good or for ill.

    And, truth be told, I kind of *like* the idea of the JSA and JLA sharing a universe….

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    1. As no doubt one of those “certain podcasters” I will say a lot of my anti-Crisis ire is just for fun, and to give Shag a hard time. I straddle the line between pre and post-Crisis fan, and there were certainly benefits to it. I just don’t think they had to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but we did need new bathwater for sure. A compromise could have been made to streamline things, but as it stands I enjoy the series, and enjoyed many of the comics that it wrought. But in my perfect head canon, it’s the pre-Crisis DCU for me.

      Having said all that, I did enjoy Shag trying to get JDW to agree with him about the Multiverse and Crisis, just to shoot him down multiple times!

      Seriously though, this was a fun episode guys. I love the post-Crisis JLA origin, and actually liked Canary as the replacement for Wonder Woman. It actually did a lot for her character! JLA: Year One is a favorite, but I totally forgot the Starman/Black Canary affair was brought up in that series! Should have mentioned that on our FW Team-Up this month! JLA: Incarnationas was a fun book, and I liked how it finally cemented the Hawks place as being on both teams. That Hawkworld Annual was a nice step in fixing the continuity, but look at those images. Superman and Wonder Woman are showin in the post-Crisis League, and Superman was never a member, and Diana hadn’t even appeared yet! She came to Man’s World after the original JLA disbanded!

      Oh, and in that Who’s Who page on Canary, it lists Larry Lance as her father…then calls him Richard in the text. That’s Dinah Sr.’s dad, and Dinah Jr.’s grandfather! We didn’t need a Crisis…we just need to clone Brenda Pope!!!

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      1. Yes, sort of…. I mean, we did already understand that the comics and the cartoon were irreconcilable universes. But it’s true that there were no “reboots,” yet. I was, of course, writing from the perspective of 40 years of hindsight.

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  6. Fascinating episode, David is such a top co-host. It’s amazing this series hasn’t been collected. I can’t remember if Tully Reed turned out to be a villain or a time traveller or what…maybe Robby Reed’s long-lost Dad!

    Sorry to be the second person to defend Roy Thomas, but the Black Canary origin abomination wasn’t his idea – he thanks Marv Wolfman for the idea at the close of play.

    I agree that the art by Val Semeiks and Prentiss Rollins was great, coincidentally they also did my JSApril pick, DC2000.

    Wasn’t Wotan actually a woman? (Checks…) Ah yes, as revealed a decade earlier in the tremendous Doctor Fate series by JM DeMatteis and Shawn McManus, which is being collected in a fine-sounding edition in May. I wonder if this would make a good InStockTrades pick…

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    1. I just experienced my own Mandela Effect thanks to your comment, Mart. I had to run out to the bookcases in the dining room to double-check because I could’ve sworn that JLA: Incarnations was collected–but no, it was DC Universe: Legacies.

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  7. I’m also a Post-Crisis child and this issue of JLA Incarnations came out a month before I graduated high school and yeah, three dollars and fifty cents was expensive. I remember thinking two-fifty for JSA was expensive, but I paid it because I loved that book. I love that the JSA inspired the Justice League in the Post-Crisis. I love that Black Canary and Hawkman were the bridges for these teams. And yes, things weren’t always cut and dry with the changes to continuity, but as you showed in the episode even Pre-Crisis stories had confusing retcons. Half the fun of the Post-Crisis was seeing something as simple as a panel showing an adventure with the Post-Crisis Justice League sans-Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman, and imagining how those events played out with this new version of the team.

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  8. Impressive podcast most impressive. Yeah if ya think that’s bad Shagg guess what…
    36 years since Tim Burton’s bat man was released. Sorry sir we’re all old. The JSA is Awsome. And while I started collecting right before Crisis. Was much before. I was reading comics since I was 3. Starting with Giant Sized X-Men No. 1 and some issue of Plastic Man . Though Supes was my favorite male hero.

    So yeah I did collect Crisis. I can see why older fans hated it. And see why JSA has so much importance. And as a major fan of the huntress, I did enjoy the 70s output that mentioned the justice society or the super squad. Which is probably why I became such a fan of Paul Levitz writing as a child . And I’ve started to dislike black Canary. Because of the way they had her step over hunters granted it was the Bertinelli version and not Wayne version but, still.

    So these are an interesting look back. I have started collecting a new justice society of America on comics olagy. And being someone who’s war fishnets and a corset, I can tell you it is not exactly something I want to dress in to go into a fist fight much less be a crime fighter in mine was the bus not the over bus that she wears anyway we are in this is very impressive and I am Glad that you cover these many different stories. I’ve read quite a few of them, but there are some, but I didn’t

    Because in the 90s, my collecting of comics has become limited to mostly Superman the triangle years Captain America and wonder woman wants WML took over as her writer. Sorry I liked WW in the biker shorts. And the other Amazon was ok as WW. Mr. Loebs wrote issue I liked.

    Still this looks like I missed out. But at the time I got my comics in a 7 11 in a small town called Alexandria Louisiana so it was not as easy to find books like this. In while I have no children of my own, I can imagine the pain black canary one was going through when she thought her daughter dead. As for where they put the ring. Only other thing they could’ve done with it was give it to either Carol Farris or Thomas himself

    So it works out well enough as for Roy Thomas a different Thomas. I’m pretty sure if he could he would’ve kept the justice society of America pretty much like it was done to where he couldn’t have them in his books while writing the justice society i.e. crisis made where he could use those characters a editorial mandate. That I’m sure he wasn’t happy about hence while we got gladiator son and others to replace the mainline characters

    So yeah, I realize it’s popular right now to bash on Roy Thomas because of the foolish thing he said about wolverine in this instance I think he’s innocent. Moving along. so the last cover most of the artwork in this book is great that last one though kinda looks like me dressed is black and the shoulders jeez Louise. Still the rest of the interior is great and it’s good to see that this is how in their new way of doing things the Hawks joined the justice league.

    Yeah, the justice league was just a renaming of the justice. Society, But because of the Phil figures on that comic, we got the fantastic four. Or so the story goes. Still I can see why fans wanted them back.

    And though I couldn’t find me the books, I wasn’t that thrilled when I heard of the whole Ragnarok thing years later when I went back to my favorite comic book store in a bigger town. As big as Lafayette can be considered at any rate, there were a lot of great stories with this team over the years And like Shagg was saying. After getting those years of lemons, we were able to get much better stories I became lemonade.

    So it worked out in the end. Though right now I’m not the biggest fan of black Canary because of what they did to the hunters through her character. There was the time when a small child I enjoyed her characterization and the green arrow back ups and justice league as well as Justice league international.

    If only the network had a podcast on that comic line.lol

    Sorry, I had to make a joke. also, is it just me or would it just be extremely hot to have to fight in a freaking wig the few times I wore one at a convention it was like I was dying because of a freaking wig. I started dressing as blonde superheroes just to not wear a freaking wig so I can imagine how much fun black Canary had fighting crime and that freaking wig, fish, nuts, and heels are bad enough, but to add a wig

    Any leather jacket that doesn’t give much arm movement either. How does she never get a run in her stockings just saying mine are held together on a wing and a prayer here. The only time I ever do anything physical in them or some games we played at a pride event doing a much of non-contact sports men women non-binary people all playing together.

    getting back to black Canary. If we forgo the weird pirate boots, she’s wearing a choker. How uncomfortable is that? She doesn’t even have her hair up. It’s just I mean it’s a wig, but still it’s gonna flop in her face if she’s got that sucker connected well enough with a hairnet thing that has a grip set up in it to keep it attached to her head. Not sure what it’s called, but I’ve seen it in a few wigs. The hair is still going to move like real hair or flop over head if she doesn’t

    For all the complaints I hear about the impracticality of super heroine costumes. Why is it? The woman who is labeled as the best combat has the most ridiculous costume to fight crime in? She’s fine as a character.

    The flash of two world stories is fine enough. I didn’t read it, but knowing Morrison‘s love for the silver edge it was probably a mind betting concept but still a love letter to that time rather interesting that he and more are able to Write edgy stories and yet come up with great stories that fit characters of the silver age age.

    I did enjoy that secret origins storyline with the justice league as they were to be seen in the universe. Although interesting though he wasn’t a member at that point we find out that it’s green arrow who’s funding the team. Anyway, can’t wait to hear the next episode.

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  9. “The Wotan fight isn’t important.” Shag, are you telling us that the “REAL” JLA: INCARNATIONS #1 was the friends the JLA/JSA made along the way?

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  10. I know I never owned that issue of Detective, but the page in question triggered a memory in me! Did I skim it on the spinner rack back in the day? Maybe? Dang, I’m so old! But that was some great research for this episode, Shagg. Loved it.

    I also loved JLA: Incarnations. Every issue was a gem, with this and the JL Detroit story being the standouts. Semeiks and Rollins were doing such great work, any comic with their art was an insta-buy.

    Now I don’t have time to go digging for this reference, but I could swear in one of the Hawkworld letters pages, Ostrander made a comment to the effect “Continuity should be a tool, not a straightjacket.” That’s stuck with me ever since, because it encapsulates wonderfully that sticking to continuity can make for good stories, but sometimes it’s ok to break away in the name of telling other stories. So I found that fascinating considering that John was stuck with trying to make sense out of Hawkman’s history in that series. And I realize a big reason I even care about continuity, is because comics have *taught* me to care! All of those stories that harken back to earlier ones with their footnotes and editor’s boxes and letter-page columns. So I don’t feel this is solely on us readers and fans. Just my 2 cents.

    Dang it, now I want to go re-read JLA: Incarnations again! Thanks for the great episode, guys!

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  11. Great episode l, guys! I love the Incarnations mini. Like Shag, I have a special place in my heart for the JLA Detroit issue. I’m a sucker for any comic that depicts them as competent (or depicts them at all, really).

    For me, making Dinah the daughter of Black Canary and having her grow up with the JSA As her uncles was an awesome choice. Sure, Silk Spectre did it first, but it adds a really fun layer to Dinah’s story and character.

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  12. Loved this episode, Shag! I never thought about when JLA: Incarnations #1 takes place in continuity., The JLA vs. JSA battle made me think of the big fight with Aquarius, though there was still an Aquarius story if Secret Origins #50 was still in continuity.

    I loved the work Ostrander did in the 1990s to smooth out continuity, or at least try to smooth it out. Speaking of continuity, I recall reading somewhere that Tim Truman’s original Hawkworld series was meant to be set in the past, but DC editorial decided to have it occur in “present day,” much like they chose to set George Perez’s Wonder Woman origin in “present day” and introduce her to the rest of the DCU in Legends.

    A fun story I love to share about the post-Crisis aftermath: I was starting college as the Crisis ended, and I wrote to DC about the Man of Steel miniseries and other changes. Imagine my surprise when I checked my dorm mailbox one day and found a letter from DC with this handwritten P.S. from Dick Giordano:

    “We’re in a transition period that is difficult for readers to easily accept. All of your questions can and will be answered in some way if your [sic] patient.
    Understand that the majority of readers (who are new to DC) don’t have any problems with what we’re doing. That is not to excuse our actions but explain them. – D”

    After reading that P.S., I decided to approach every new change in continuity with an open mind (which isn’t to say I’ve liked every change).

    On a semi-related note, I think that’s when I really noticed a difference between Roy Thomas’s “retroactive continuity” (which seemed to focus on filling in gaps and explaining inconsistencies between plots, characters, etc.) and a “retcon” (the wholesale rewriting of a story or revamping of a character). For example, the infamous “There are actually two Dinah Lances!” JLA/JSA crossover is retroactive continuity (it addresses the question of why Black Canary was still so young when she’d started her career in 1948 but doesn’t directly change anything that happened to her since Justice League of America v1 #75), whereas Alan Brennert’s post-Crisis origin of Black Canary I & II is a retcon (it completely changes the character history, right down to both Canaries being present at the battle with Aquarius where Larry Lance died).

    (Sorry-not-sorry for wandering down the rabbit hole.)

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