On this episode of Peace Bound and Down: A Wonder Woman Podcast, Sean is joined by Dr. Anj to discuss the end of the Pre-Crisis Wonder Woman. Join them as they review Wonder Woman (Vol. 1) 329, Crisis On Infinite Earths 12, and Legends 6, which cover the “death” and “rebirth” of Wonder Woman.
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Bringing a little peace to man’s world each month.
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My new favorite show! Thanks for doing this deep dive into WW’s greatest era
Thanks, DAG! I had so much fun recording with Dr. Anj. He’s such a great guest.
Also, your guess about the “salacious” artist Perez is referring to as Alan Davis is super interesting. I never even considered Davis.
Great episode! I’m beyond thrilled to listen to Sean Ross at his new pod-home on the Fire & Water Network! I haven’t read the Perez WW, so I’m looking forward to reading along & discovering some good comics!!
Thank you so much, Allen!
Only halfway through the episode, but LOVING it! I also don’t have much experience with Bronze Age Wonder Woman, so it’s great to hear your and Dr Anj’s thoughts.
On your question about which “cheesecake” artist George Perez flinched at for Wonder Woman, here are a few additional (less high profile) guesses…
– Will Meugniot – Great artist, but some of this female characters in DNAgents were very cheesecake-y
– Joe Staton – Accomplished artist, but maybe they considered pulling him from Green Lantern Corps. With that said, his women could veer into cheesecake often.
– Dan Spiegle – Another great artist, but some of his female characters (like Domino) could be on the cheescake side.
I’m sure there are tons more, but those great artists of the 1980s came to mind. Was also trying to think outside the box because DC was trying so many new artists from other companies in that era. Also, they may not have expected a new Wonder Woman book to be a huge hit after years of mediocre sales, so maybe lesser known artists were a consideration.
Looking forward to the rest of the episode!
Or maybe even Paris Cullens? He was established at DC by this point. He drew Wonder Woman on the cover of WHO’S WHO #26. It’s not overtly sexy, but there is a certain doe-eyed, ridiculous proportions that might be considered cheesecake-y. Maybe they were considering Paris for Wonder Woman rather than Blue Beetle?
Cullens is a great guess, especially considering the Who’s Who connection! I wouldn’t call him a “cheesecake” artist either, but I could see him being viewed as an odd fit for Wonder Woman.
I happen to know a bit about Hades & Persephone (we’ll talk about reasons later) and you are correct that Kore is Persephone. Here’s the top bit from Wikipedia:
“In ancient Greek mythology and religion, Persephone, also called Kore (lit. ’the maiden’) or Cora, is the daughter of Zeus and Demeter. She became the queen of the underworld after her abduction by her uncle Hades, the king of the underworld, who would later also take her into marriage.”
Since Kore means “Maiden” and Persephone means “Bringer of Death”, I’m going to guess that her name was changed after her marriage and “Winter” began instead of the eternal Spring that happened before she was trapped in the underworld for part of the year.
Thanks, Gene! I didn’t know about the “Kore” name. I used to teach a classics course to high school kids, and I love the Myth of Persephone. It opens so many rich discussions.
It’s fun to speculate about the identity of the “cheesecake” artist who was being considered. I don’t think there’s any way it could have been Dave Stevens, since it was pretty well known that Stevens worked too slowly and meticulously to do a regular series…
One possibility that strikes me as likely would be Mark Beachum; he was a rising young artist at the time thanks to his issues of Peter Parker the Spectacular Spider-Man, so I can see him being “hot” enough for DC to offer him the job, while not being such a big name as to be unobtainable. And if you’ve seen his Black Cat scenes in Peter Parker, then you know he’s DEFINITELY a cheesecake artist.
(I remember Peter David telling an anecdote, without naming names, about writing a comic where it was a plot point that a secondary character was plain/homely, and when the artwork came in, the artist had drawn her only slightly less glamorous than most comic women. David didn’t identify the artist, but I strongly suspect that it was Beachum…)
Erich,
Beachum is a GREAT guess! I hadn’t thought about it, but his art on Spider-Man was very…evocative.
Thanks for listening!
Another possibility that comes to mind is Paul Gulacy: A well-known artist who wouldn’t be a bad fit for a Wonder Woman comic, but there’s definitely a cheesecake factor to a lot of his work.
I like the Beachum idea too, he drew several Huntress shorts in WW in the year or so before Crisis, and displayed cheesecake tendencies- try #316, for one, so he would have been on the editorial radar.
Like Shag, though, my mind went straight to Staton, but I’ve never heard that he’s anything but a lovely chap, so that’s him out.
I encountered Staton for the first time in his super cartoony phase in the 80s, so I have trouble seeing him as “cheesecake”. However, in reflecting on how he changed his style for the late-80s Huntress series, which I loved, it is possible.
It’s terrific to hear a new episode and you know I love Anj. A look at the end of the post-Crisis Wonder Woman was a great idea. I couldn’t tell if you’d read the Trina Robbins/Kurt Busiek Legend of Wonder Woman series, but it has a framing sequence linking it directly to the end of Crisis. There’s a statue of Diana in costume made from the post-devolution clay, then at the end of the series the Amazons forget Diana ever existed as the new reality takes hold. Aphrodite turns the Amazons into constellations, allowing new lady warriors to take their place, and lets her mystic wards fall, leaving an uninhabited Paradise Island to be properly integrated into the post-Crisis world, as Diana’s story begins again.
I do like the Lasso of Truth feature (if you ever get the Waiting For Doom boys on it can be the Lasso of Strewth!), but how about a sound effect, something with a golden hum? I thank you for not using ‘the Golden Perfect, as a teacher you should not be down with adjectives being used as nouns! Also, it’s so blooming pretentious.
I was with Wonder Woman through the whole of the Bronze Age, three years of which were under the stewardship of Gerry Conway, so if then-recent writers Mindy Newell and Dan Mishkin weren’t available, bringing Gerry back was a great idea. I enjoyed this issue loads, even the convoluted Steve Trevor of it all. I loved how well Diana and Steve worked as a team – by the Bronze Age Steve was no longer the creepy moron of Robert Kanigher yore but a worthy partner for Superheroine Number One.
There was an offhand comment that maybe DC needed someone who could finish the book quickly, but this script doesn’t display signs of a rush job – you acknowledged that it’s a well-crafted affair serving Diana’s ongoing storylines, supporting cast and the Crisis.
I wonder if the nuttiness of Steve Trevor being killed and reborn and a parallel Earth Steve, and Eros borrowing his body inspired the Steve business in the WW84 film.
Anj, yes Wonder Woman in the final years was indeed a top read – jump on with #297, when Dan Mishkin took over from Roy Thomas after helping with dialogue in the previous couple of issues.
I’m not so sure this was Diana’s first time with a man, I’m very suspicion over events in my single favourite issue of the Bronze Age, #246. No boeuf bourguignon was involved.
I wasn’t upset by this issue’s marriage in view of what came so soon after in Crisis #12, but by Diana’s death there which, as you said, was the definition of throwaway.
Anj’s humorous way of bringing peace to mankind was pretty darn violent
Sean, you need to meet our cats Emmy and Millie, they are adorable, as are the two Siamese opposite.
I’m hoping you recorded this episode before feedback on the first episode came in, and that future episodes will include a few comments. I love feedback!
Martin,
Thank you so much for listening and commenting! I have read the Busiek/Robbins mini, but it’s been years, so I’d forgotten about the transition. Thanks for the reminder.
As someone who didn’t read pre-Crisis Wonder Woman, I loved issue 329. It’s inspired me to go back and read the run up. Thanks for the recommended starting point.
You are indeed correct that this episode was recorded early. Staring next episode, I will share feedback.
Quite a bit of serendipity regarding Steve Trevor. You start off the show by discussing the many deaths of Steve. Then you drop it on the very day the new Wonder Woman comes out featuring; the death of Steve Trevor. You couldn’t have done any better if you had planned it.
Hal,
Not to brag, but….it was dumb luck.
Thanks for listening!
No. It was just another case of the Fire and Water Network “Making Things Happen!”
Excellent episode despite Sean’s cat hate. Sean, the reason people who fear or don’t like cats are cat magnets is because your body language is actually giving off friendly vibes. Cats express friendship and trust by turning their backs to you, or closing their eyes at you, and generally ignoring you. If you show no interest, they think it IS interest!
As for the “civil service” idea, France does this. You can either do military service or go and get experience working abroad (the gov pays for a good chunk of it, which makes places like non profits eager to pick up the extra labour).
As for Whatever Happened to the Princess of Power (oh, that WASN’T the title?), I’ve never read it, but it looks pretty keen.
Siskoid,
Your cat explanation makes total sense. The more I ignore them, the more they like me. I still have my suspicions about their evil inten lt though….
They are merely amoral.
Great episode gents! I will admit while I bought Wonder Woman in the late Bronze Age…I didn’t often read her strip. I bought it for the Huntress. I know, I know, I’m one of many folks who did that. But I have read some of the mid-70s issues set on Earth-Two during World War II (trying to match the TV series’ first season). They guest star the JSA in a few tales and are a lot of fun. And the just-reprinted Superman vs. Wonder Woman treasury is set on Earth-Two as well, and that’s a great story.
Marrying Steve and Diana off was a nice way to cap the series, but why not just let BOTH sets of the couple exist on Mt. Olympus? DC was hung up on the Post-Crisis versions of Superman and Wonder Woman taking the place of their Earth-One counterparts, but to me they are different characters. It’s why the Who’s Who diss of the Earth-One versions rankled the feathers of a generation.
Cindy is a huge fan of the Trina Robbins/Kurt Busiek Legend of Wonder Woman series that followed this. It’s probably her favorite comic run. It is a lot of fun, and I enjoy it too. But what period would you put that in? Is it Bronze Age, or Post-Crisis?
It’s definitely post-Crisis, see my post above!
Sorry, I didn’t read all the comments beforehand, but I can see that opening splash page in my mind now. Duh!
I always try to read the comments that are there before posting, knowing that any brilliant piece of research I have, Isamu will likely have got there first with, but I don’t always manage it!
Where IS our fine young gentleperson?
Great show, Sean and Anj. I remember having only two issues of the pre-Crisis Wonder Woman series: #246 with a shadow creature of some kind on the cover trying to steal the tiara and #256 with WW unmasking Ten from the Royal Flush Gang on the cover. The former was written by jack C. Harris and the latter by Paul Levitz IIRC. The art was by Jose Delbo. I have always felt that she was hampered by her somewhat undistinguished rogues gallery. As a kid in the late 70s and early 80s, I knew Cheetah and … maybe Angle Man? Perez and others have rectified that in the years since.
I like the idea of some type of national service for young people and it has been proposed by folks on both sides of our political aisle.
However, as the dedicated servant of two feline mistresses (Maggie and Selina), I must take issue with your bad cat-itude, Sean. Besides, we don’t have them as pets. They have us.
In any event, keep up the good work. I listened to this episode with my Wonder Wifey and she is a fan of the show as well. Looking forward to what comes next.
Wonder Woman #246, the very Bronze Age issue I cited as my favourite a few comments back!
Super Captain,
Thanks for listening! I agree that WW’s rogues gallery was in need of an update, which I’m glad Perez addresses. His Cheetah redesign is among my favorite redesigns of all time.
And I knew my cat take would be controversial….but the Dog lobby paid me well, so I had to take a stand.
I’ve been on holiday so just want to belatedly thank everyone for the kind comments.
Paul Gulacy is definitely a great guess for the ‘good girl artist’!
I had a blast recording this so want to again thank Sean for inviting me!
Thanks for joining in on the fun! You are welcome on the show any time!
Great show, Sean and Anj. I’m loving the start to the new podcast! I had never read WW 329 before, but I enjoyed it. I’m with you that Don Heck is the ultimate Tomahawk interior artist, but this isn’t bad. Maybe Helen Vesik is doing the heavy work. Having Zeus marry Diana and Steve? That’s the equivalent of me hiring Bill Cosby to officiate my wedding.
I totally remember Wonder Woman’s death at the tail end of Crisis was a shock. Wonder Woman was a foot from the exit, and the Anti-Monitor shouts out to her just to be a dick. Especially the indignity that he, more or less, barfed on her like it was a late-night kegger. Kid Psycho had a more noble death. But what a return once Perez took the helm! And a dramatic last second entrance in Legends definitely helped paper over her Crisis demise.
Finally, you are 100% correct about cats. They are the Karens of the animal kingdom. If you (the royal you) dropped dead, your cat would walk over your prone body, do some gross stretch and lick, and walk on like you never existed.
Looking forward to Wonder Woman #1!
Thank you for listening and for supporting my anti-feline agenda! I laughed out loud at your tail of what a cat would do if you died!
Greta second episode! Loved the recaps and discussion of Diana’s last pre-Crisis appearances and her appearance in Legends.
I really want to look at a timeline of publication during the whole 1985-1986 period. 40 years on it’s a jumbled mess in my head. My brain wants to make the period between the end of Crisis and the start of Man of Steel and Legends as a much larger gap than it really is.
Dave,
I have the same issue. Man of Steel #1 feels like it happened years after Crisis, but that’s just age messing with us. Thanks for listening!
I had no idea how volume 1 ended. Thanks for shining a light on it. Anj was great as always.
You’ve got a great thing going here Sean.
Byrne run.
Really enjoyed the episode – Dr. Anj was a perfect guest!
I’d never read any pre-Crisis Wonder Woman and was surprised at how much I liked #329. Maybe I should follow Mart’s recommendation and start with #297 and see what I think. I do remember being shocked by what happened to Wonder Woman at the end of Crisis, though I guess I shouldn’t have been after Barry and Kara.
Looking forward to rereading the early Perez issues and getting caught up…