FW Presents – Avengers: Infinity War

Fire and Water Network Assemble! Chris, Rob, Ryan, Shag, and Siskoid join together for a SPOILER-HEAVY discussion of AVENGERS: INFINITY WAR!

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26 responses to “FW Presents – Avengers: Infinity War

  1. Haven’t heard the episode yet. Do you discuss how Vision went from OG Christmas-colored Vision to John Byrne WCA-colored Vision? Hoping he comes back for the sequel.

    1. OK, now that I’ve heard the episode, I have a question:

      We get to see Vision with blond hair when he was in Scotland. Did anyone else wonder if this was a way to introduce Vision’s past as the original Human Torch?

      As a fan of the Invaders stories and of the 70s Avengers stories featuring the Vision, seeing the Vision in action in the movies was pretty exciting. I kept watching Cap’s reactions to the scenes with Vision and Wanda and I think there’s enough wiggle room to suggest that Cap knows that Vision was the OG Torch. He was a bit too Red Tornado-y for me by being so easily damaged early on, but I guess he needed to be nerfed early to help up the stakes. I guess it would have been too easy for him to turn his hand intangible to remove the gem from his forehead.

  2. At the end of A:IW, I thought: “Whew! the MCU sure could use a little bit of Superman turning back time right now!”

    Also: curious to see if any of the people who complained about Superman’s solution for Zod in MAN OF STEEL will say anything about the huge numbers of aliens killed in A:IW. I do not believe Cap, Black Panther or Thor were just stunning any of those aliens.

    I apologize if I seem grumpy. Seeing the film with my family made me a bit more reflective about what sort of messages might be coming across.

    1. I had similar misgivings when my 10-year old daughter began asking some very uncomfortable questions on the car ride home.

  3. Great episode, kids.

    Couple of things: Along with the perfect casting of Cap and Iron Man, I think Tom Holland is the best Spider-Man to date. He had the greatest line of the movie with his “made-up names” Line. His departure was also the most heartbreaking.

    One thing I must quibble with Rob on is his belief that the nerds have won. The guys cashing the big checks off these comic book movies are total Cobra Kai – as are now the fans of these movies. As I’ve said before, the “No Fear” crowd (Extreme! sports people, not Hal Jordan fans) has traded in their NF shirts for Deadpool, Batman, and Punisher wear.

    And I don’t get why Daly thinks I hate Ant-Man so much.

  4. I touched on this on our A:IW epicsode, but listening to your death pool has me even more convinced than ever that no one of significance is going to die or stay dead in the next Avengers movie. Cap, Thor and Iron Man are all too valuable as IP, and Black Widow is too much of a feminist flashpoint character to fridge. The universe is going to get fixed. Tony gets a happy ending and retirement until the role is recast.

    I think reports of Chris Evans’ departure have been greatly exaggerated, and he’s just going to slow his pace on playing Cap without completely exiting the role. I believe in the wake of the Thanos corrective action, we get a relaxing of the Sokovia Accords that allows Cap to work on his own, but the government will still call the shots over the Avengers, which he’s unwilling to abide. We leave him with the promise of further adventures, but not necessarily any in Phase 4. Ditto Black Widow, except she gets the prequel film as a consolation prize.

    I suspect Hemsworth is already onboard for another Thor sequel that continues with the Ragnarok cast (including Tom Hiddloeston’s Loki.) It would be nice if we got a quasi-Defenders movie, but Sub-Mariner and Silver Surfer will wait for the Fantastic Four movie at the earliest. I do think Marvel sees Dr. Strange as a character needing the added value approach, so maybe they throw Spider-Man into the mix?

    My expectation is that we leave the sequel with Loki presiding over a revived Asgard, allowing Thor to return to his space adventures with Valkyrie. That leaves a pseudo-Avengers placeholder team comprised of Captain Marvel, War Machine, Vision, Scarlet Witch, and Falcon, possibly also involving Winter Soldier. That way the franchise players are free to do their thing without No-Prizing Avengers involvement. They’ll be the “official” team referenced in other Marvel movies until the fifth film, which would bring in star ringers like Black Panther, Thor, Hulk and/or Spider-Man. I expect we’ll get at least one Avengers without Cap or Iron Man, just to prove it can be done and cap salaries. If it under-performs, that’s when Marvel sends out the dumptrucks full of money or gets serious about recasting. Alternately, the Fox deal closes in time for phase six, and maybe they pivot to rebooting the X-Men?

  5. Warning – huge spoiler and theory filled comment incoming!!
    Hi Guys, Thanks for all coming together to talk about this movie. Straight off I will declare that I thought this movie was fantastic and I thoroughly enjoyed from start to finish and I have read through most of the comics. Unlike previous topics like Justice League or really any DC orientated stuff, I feel pretty well grounded in the source material. Not from an Avengers prospective, as I was always more of an X-men guy, but from being a huge fan of Silver Surfer. I actually bought some of the Infinity War issues off the rack which was a complete rarity for me as a kid and have now got most of the trades.

    I think this movie found a great compromise between holding to the source material and watering it down for the masses, or muggles as you guys mentioned. I do not think the whole courting Death thing would have translated very well to the big screen and would have left too many people having to make a too big of a jump to get on board with. Thanos wanting to wipe out half the universe because of a lack of resources is far easier to get behind and still achieves the same result.

    I really enjoyed the structure of this movie. It is so different from anything that has come before like you guys have mentioned. And yes it does require some prior knowledge or homework to get a proper sense of whats going on. But I see that as a good thing. As you guys said we are now 18 movies and 10 years into these characters. We don’t need to spend time introducing and developing the heroes. That has already been done. Here were can just hit the go button and get right into it. So yes I do agree this might not be a very good stand-alone film but it is in no way meant to be seen as a stand alone film, from the heroes perspective that is.

    It is however pretty close to a stand alone film from our main driving character, Thanos’ perspective. Which was great that a movie of this scale was able to trust that we knew enough about the heroes and gave us the time to develop Thanos. I think that was my main concern going in. Would the audience be able to understand and get on board with this bad guy? And I would say that was a big yes.

    Now, guys, “there was no emotional impact for me because we all know some, most, if not all the dead heroes will be back because this one has a movie coming out blah blah blah” come on you jaded old guys geez!!! Can’t you just put that aside for like 3hrs and just go on this huge major ride the movie takes you on?? At the end of this movie the good guys lost, bad. None of them know how bad yet, some lost more than others but man if those scenes as the heroes turned to leaves and blew away didn’t get you right in the feels, there is something wrong with you. I have read the comics, I know who has a movie coming out soon, all of that but I can tell ya, even knowing all that this movie got me. Now I’m not saying I cried, but I get it when I hear about people who did. And this very much was a cliff hanger as we don’t “know” how or who will come back or who of those left standing at the end of this movie will be still standing at the end of the next one.

    And think this touches on why there was the name change. This movie was the Infinity War, the war to stop Thanos and the good guys lost. The “war” is over. The next chapter will be dealing with and overcoming the fallout from the events in this movie. Which is a nice way to lead into my predictions for the next chapter.

    I don’t think it will have anything to do with the Time Gem. If they do make it that Dr Strange rigged up some trick or trap to trigger a quick jump back in time to undo what’s been done I’ll be pissed. I’m over the time paradox already. Season 3 of the Flash and DC Legends has burnt me out of time jump stories.

    I feel this will be where they come back to the source material. Everyone who died/was killed/disappeared once Thanos had the Reality Gem and especially the Soul Gem can/will come back. I believe they have all gone into the Soul Gem, the Soul World I think it was called. I think there will be two teams, one outside the soul gem and one inside the soul gem. And it will be the actions of those inside the Soul Gem which will cause Thanos to give up the gauntlet which will enable those outside the gem to physically remove it from Thanos. This will be how the use but not use the whole Lady Death realization that makes Thanos give up the gauntlet in the comic. Let’s face it, Thanos is simply too powerful with the gauntlet to forcibly remove it. He has to want to give it up for whatever reason. And that is the 1 plan Dr Strange saw that would work, why he gave up the gem and saved Tony.

    Now as for who is dead, who isn’t and who will be, again I say everyone that died before Thanos got either the Reality Gem or Soul Gem is dead dead. Loki, Heimdall, half the Asgardians are all dead not coming back. Gamora and the others, inside Soul World. I really feel that sadly you guys were right about Cap, he won’t quit or retire so it will be terrible but I think we lose him. Tony I think survives but is devastated by Caps death, he retires and goes to have babies with Pepper. Thor lives to rebuild his people. For the others we might lose Black Widow or Falcon and yep strong chance Bucky will be the new Cap. Shuri and Banner will fix Vision but yes he will be more robotic and cold.

    The absence of Hawkeye and Ant-man was disappointing but by no means a deal breaker. For Hawkeye, he is totally chilling at home when all of a sudden his wife and kids turn to dust which causes him to back looking for the reason why. Ant-man and Wasp will totally finish with Hank Pym and maybe Scott Lang fading out to leave the Wasp to join up with the others. Banner and Hulk will sort out Hulk’s performance issues and I’m actually hoping with will get grey Hulk where they have more or less merged and accepted each other. At the end will be a new Avengers line up with Capt Marvel, Spider-man, Ant-man, Wasp, Vision, Scarlet Witch, Bucky and Black Panther. Maybe Dr Strange but I think he will head back to the sanctum.

    As for the CGI issues you guys saw with Banner in the Hulk Buster armour, I didn’t pick up on them. It looked off but I really thought they were just trying to “show” or point out the suit wasn’t made for Banner, it was made for Tony so it was too big, it didn’t fit right on purpose. That’s what I took away from it at least. The rest of the effects were magnificent. Thanos looked great and really felt like he was there and oppressive.

    Other issues like the power levels of Cap vs Thanos in contrast to Hulk vs Thanos. I’m going with Thanos used the Power Gem when boxing Hulk and/or was going full throttle against him. What Cap did was stop ONE of Thanos’ hands from grabbing him. He didn’t push it back or overpower it, simply stop it from moving further forward. Thanos had a whole other hand and both legs still available to use but didn’t and I feel did have a moment of respect, I think Rob mentioned, like when Cap moved Mjolnir just a fraction.

    I listened to the Rolled Spine ep for Infinity War and while Frank took some aspects of this movie to some very weird and dark places, I do agree that the Wakandans could have made much better use of their tech. We saw in Black Panther they have air support and fighters. Surely they would have turrets and artillery. The blind infantry charge was pretty thin story telling. It set up a great fight scene and you got a real sense of urgency from it but it did kinda stick out to me. I don’t feel for a second that any of it would have changed the outcome of that battle or would have helped the Avengers stop Thanos but I think it would have been ok for them to say, “Its close but no, no, it’s okay, we got this. We are winning, driving them back. Oh shit here’s Thanos… And now we lost…” which really is basically what happened anyway.

    The directing, screen writing and jokes for this movie were all brilliant and on point. The collaboration with James Gunn was fantastic and what should be done on occasions like this. The setting aside of egos and agendas for the greater good, if you take my meaning. There are so many one-liners from this movie that will become regular parts of the Rift Household Im sure. But I too missed some because I was laughing too loudly.

    Sorry for the huge comment but this was a huge movie. I’m sure 2 seconds after hitting the post button I will remember something another point I wanted to touch on. I appreciate those that read it all the way through, maybe next time just have me on the show to rant and avoid this 😛 Cheers guys.

    1. I think it can be very difficult to ignore knowing about actor contracts, sequel schedules, etc. when viewing a movie. In fact, by the sounds of it, it’s those very things that shaped how the podcasters viewed how Capt America and Iron Man would fare in this film. If someone exposed to all the real world of filmmaking nonsense can tune out and forget all that, I envy them.

      Glad you like the movie. See it a lot more so I can retire. And take some friends!

  6. I liked the film, but didn’t love it. The last third was a bit eye-rolling, between the Wakanda battle (high ground, people) and Quill’s idiocy. That said, I was impressed with how well this production crew juggled so many balls in the air at once and giving each character in this massive cast something to do. This film is an impressive achievement in spite of its flaws. But flaws it has, and saying that to the myriad Marvel fan cults (that moniker doesn’t apply to any of you) is tantamount to calling the Suicide Squad movie high art.

  7. It was great to hear so many of the Network hosts come together for this episode. It’s been a while since the last Network-wide crossover. I thoroughly enjoyed Infinity War, and plan to see it at least once more in the theater. My wife and I are still up in the air as to whether or not we’ll let our daughter see it in the theater. While she would love all the humor, and seeing her beloved Guardians of the Galaxy on the big screen again, there might be some scenes that are still too intense for her (e.g., Loki’s execution and Vision being impaled).

    I did have one idea regarding how Cap could be taken off the table without killing or retiring him. If someone needed to take Gamora’s place in the Soul Gem, so that she could be freed and Thanos defeated, then I could see Cap making such a sacrifice. Bucky or someone else could take up the mantel of Captain America, but Steve Rogers could always be rescued from the Soul Gem at some later point, if his return was desired. Of course, that wouldn’t work, if Siskoid is correct regarding the resolution of Gamora’s story being held off until Guardian’s of the Galaxy Vol 3.

  8. I went with my wife who is not a comic book fan (for the most part) in really any form print /tv/movies etc. and we both thought basically the same thing the story was good but about half way through it suffered from too much cgi special affects. It got to the point where the cgi fx was distracting from what was happening because it was fighting with itself to be noticed and not actually helping the story.
    I did think they did a good job with writing it so that the characters felt like they were in their movies during their screen time but switching between them and merging them didn’t feel jarring.

  9. Re: Speculation on Avengers 4.

    You guys had some interesting theories on what will happen to the future of the original lineup.

    Here’s my theory: I think that during the final battle with Thanos most, if not all, of the original Avengers appear to sacrifice themselves defeating the Mad Titan. Cut to the end of the movie where the surviving characters are mourning the loss of the core group of Avengers, resolving to carry on the good fight in their memory as the new Avengers. Roll credits to the stinger where we see the MIA Avengers lost in a pocket universe or some other dimension determined to get back home.

    It makes sense to do it this way because it would take those characters off the table for the foreseeable future, allowing Marvel Studios to focus on other characters but would give them the wriggle room to bring them back a few years down the road ala Heroes Reborn/Heroes Return with new actors.

  10. Fire and Water Friends….Go For It!
    Great show! As for my own viewing of the movie, the “deaths” at the end got almost no reaction from anyone, so maybe everyone around me was a jaded old comic book fan? I mean, Spider-Man’s death was played so well that it still had impact, but really: did Marvel expect anyone over a certain age to suspect that they just wiped out Spidey for all future movies? Or, for that matter any of these characters, period? Probably not, and I’m sure many small children were traumatized by what they saw at this (PG-13?) film. That being said, I enjoyed a lot of moments in this film, but overall, I am way more psyched for Ant-Man and The Wasp.

  11. Putting my own speculation cards down:
    Tony survives. He’s going to make it to that wedding, and Pepper is totally pregnant too, and that’s what will make retirement ‘take’. Cap, maybe not so much. Timelost Cap could happen. Thor could go either way.

    I do like the “Avengers Forever” idea, especially if it involves not just single-story time travel shenannigans but our surviving heroes going full-on Back to the Future 2 on the entire MCU so far on their way to winning.

    The next team movie after A4 should be Thunderbolts, though.

  12. Great podcast! Y’all were like the Avengers of podcasting. I though Avengers was a good movie. Although it could easily have been split into two movies with about 15 minutes extra added to each of them. I would have added more grieving time for each of the characters that died.

    My prediction for the next film. Ironman retires and a woman becomes Ironman. Same goes for Captain America and Loki never dies he comes back.

    I liked that Doc Strange forecasted the future that there was one path to winning. He is going to be in the soul stone with the other 1/2 of the universe and gets out of it. (This type of thing happens numerous times for Strange)

    To add to Rob’s comment that he wanted to read more Marvel comics. The current Marvel (with the exception of Dr Strange) – not so good. However, Marvel was brilliant in releasing reprints for $1 each to coincide with the movies. The origin of Thanos when he was a child is fascinating.

  13. OK, now that I’ve seen the movie, I was able to listen to this episode. Great analysis and conversation. However, this movie has me even more convinced that no one is going to die, really, but Marvel Studios will use the Infinity Gauntlet, and Adam Warlock, to hit a big old reset switch. Every character will be brought back, and those that survived the end of this movie will be changed, as necessary. If Robert Downy, Jr and Chris Evans leave, no problem. They just recast and blame it on the reality altering properties of the Gauntlet.

    See this for my full thoughts: http://www.thehammerstrikes.com/2017/07/mcu-reset-switch.html

  14. These roundtable special episodes are so much fun. Getting so many of you podcasters together makes for great discussions, and you make me laugh SO MUCH! Thank you!

    Others have touched on a similar theory of mine: Steve and Tony sacrifice themselves, not by dying, but by becoming the jailers of Thanos in a gem/dimension/plane, similar to how Red Skull is stranded. I think of it like the end of the Thanos Imperative, where Star Lord and Nova do a similar thing. Why both Cap and Tony? For the closure. Civil War tore them apart. Stopping Thanos brings them back together.

    Proxima Midnight. Corvus Glave. Ebony Maw. Black Dwarf. (yeah, that’s from memory.)

    Yes, there was no context for other viewers, but when the Captain Marvel logo appeared, big time nerdgasm. It was pretty embarrassing.

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