You asked for more “Draft” episodes, and we listened! After building our dream Justice Leagues and assembling our favorite Avengers, it’s finally time to embrace our inner supervillains! Join The Irredeemable Shag, Brett Young, Chris Franklin, Paul Kien, Sean Ross, and John Steib for an epic DC villain draft as they battle to build the ultimate LEGION OF DOOM!
The rules are simple… sort of:
- 7 villains per team
- Snake draft format
- Round 1: Draft one of the founding members of the classic Challenge of the Super Friends Legion of Doom. Choose wisely, because once a villain is selected, every incarnation and legacy of that character is off the board for everyone else. And all of the remaining classic Legion of Doom members who were not chosen are eliminated from the draft!
- Rounds 2–6: Any other DC villain is fair game!
- Final Round: Everyone gets a unique incarnation of Lex Luthor to complete their team.
Then YOU get to decide which team deserves to rule the DC Universe! After listening, check out the visual rosters, and then vote for your favorite Legion of Doom team in the comments on this post. One lucky commenter will win a FREE T-shirt from the Fire & Water Podcast Network merch store!
SPOILER ALERT – After listening, check out the visual representations of each of our teams here:
https://fireandwaterpodcast.com/podcast/fwp-lod-draft-gallery/
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The Hall of Doom is open for business… and evil has never been so much fun!
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While recording, I completely forgot to explain a whole part of my final team plan. Guess I’ll share here.
Lex Luthor and Superwoman on my team are romantically linked, but she’s just totally using him.
Meanwhile, Grodd and Blackfire are both independently (and secretly) plotting to overthrow Luthor and take the lead of the team.
Metallo and Reverse Flash don’t care who is in charge, as long as they get to cause havoc and hurt the JLA.
While Major Disaster has all these conflicted feelings of guilt for attacking his former JLA teammates.
Would have been a comic book melodrama masterpiece!
1. Solomon Grundy (Legion of Doom)
2. Black Manta (Modern Day)
3. Lex Luthor ( Purple and Green Warsuit)
4. Sinestro
5.Superwoman (Current Earth 3)
6. Chronos (80’s Blue Beetle era)
7. Talia al Ghul
Hi Greg – Thanks for your list! But if you are following the rules we outlined on this very podcast, you can only take one member of the original LEGION OF DOOM (or any variants of them), plus a Lex Luthor. But thanks for sharing!
All of these rosters are awesome ! I pick Brett Young because of Giganta & Sportsmaster. The team I make is villains I want to see fight Martian Manhunter 1. Sinestro 2. Mr. Mind 3. Animal-Vegetable-Mineral Man 4. Faceless Hunter from Saturn 5. Poison Ivy 6. Houngan 7. Power armor Lex.
Good work, Kevin. Beignets are on me.
The guys requested I include my draft breakdown for villains I did not end up taking. So here you go:
MAD HATTER
Jervis Tetch
4’8” 149lbs out of Gotham City. His upside is his downside. You need a creep on the team. Someone everyone else is uncomfortable around to do certain dirty work. Who better than the disturbed villain with a little man’s complex and hypnotic hats?
STARRO THE CONQUEROR
32’ 3 tons from space, I guess.
The world conqueror may have trouble fitting in the meeting hall, he makes up with it with his toughness and power blasts from his tentacles. Not to mention his mind control by firing out small starfish at people’s faces. Gross.
BLACK HAND
William Hand, 5’7” 165lbs and straight from the graveyard.
What he lacks in name originality, Black Hand makes up for in dark power. That ring can drain Green Lantern rings and raise the dead. That’s metal!
BLOODSPORT
Robert DuBois, 6’1” 231lbs
This Metropolis native has the build of a linebacker and the aim of a quarterback. A long distance threat, Bloodsport can keep accessing weapon after weapon to keep the heroes at bay.
CAPTAIN BOOMERANG
George “Digger” Harkness
5’9” 167lbs and comes from the same place the Waiting for Doom guys and Bluey are from. This Aussie’s moral compass is lacking, but not his aim! Chucking boomerangs of all kinds – explosive boomerangs, grappling hook boomerangs, razor boomerangs, and boomerang boomerangs.
DEADSHOT
Floyd Lawton
6’1” 202lbs
This Suicide Squader hails from Gotham City and love to shoot people. His wrist rifles allow him plenty of flexibility to kill while walking, holding a beverage, or just lounging around. He’s a bit of a downer, but he’s used to a team dynamic. Beware the second hand smoke.
PERSUADER
Nyeun Chun Ti
6’3” 240lbs
This Fatal Fiver is built like an edge rusher with the strength to match. But what he really brings to the table is his atomic axe that cuts thru anything, like a sandwich, steel, or even gravity. How does that work? Who cares? He will kick your butt.
TATTOOED MAN
Abel Tarrent
6’0” 195lbs
He’s an ex-seaman with a tattoo from every port, not to mention chlamydia. He’s so tatted up, for undercover work, he can blend into any boardwalk crowd along the Jersey or Maryland shore by simply throwing on a tank top and crocs.
LASHINA
6’6” 225lbs
This Apocalypse native missed her calling as a power forward. Besides her super human strength, agility, speed, and endurance, Lashina has her whips and lashes to take out heroes in bunches.
CHESHIRE
Jade Nguyen
5’9” 135lbs
The French Vietnamese assassin is a single mom and master martial artist. She’s an expert in poisons and infiltration but struggles to keep her daughter’s bus pickup/dropoff times straight.
EL PAPAGAYO
5’11” 174lbs
Hailing from 19th Century Mexico, “The Parrot” leads a team of vicious bandits who take no prisoners. A born leader, El Papagayo is a brilliant strategist with a mean streak. Ruthless. Quick with his six shooters and savage hand-to-hand combatant, he’s one tough hombre
LADY VIC
Elaine Marsh-Morton
5’6” 120lbs of London, England
Born from British aristocracy, this saucy assassin/mercenary is a master of bladed weapons. Think “The Crown” with more murder and less incest.
ONOMATOPOEIA
5’11” 180lbs
This mysterious psycho likes to make fun noises as he shoots at you. Expert with all NATO and Warsaw Pact small arms. Very durable. Can take six arrows and fall off a building and keep getting’ it
CALORIE QUEEN
Taryn Loy
5’7” 120lbs
This tough gal from Bismoll can do everything Matter Eater Lad can do, but do it better. She can eat anything (including dessert) and instantly metabolize it into super strength. The other girls totally hate her, but she’s a team player.
THE GENERAL
General Wade Eiling
10’5” 2125lbs
With the body of the Shaggy Man, Eiling combines power with strategery. He got super strength, stamina, speed, and can regenerate tissue. The downside is shaving his entire shaggy body has got to itch like mad a day or two later
WARP
Emil LeSalle
5’8” 134lbs (180lbs with the helmet)
The Flyin’ Frenchman is an asset thanks to his ability to open a warp hole in space to move the team or an enemy from one place to another. Also saves on DoorDash.
UPSIDE DOWN MAN
Height and weight difficult to determine cuz nobody wants to get close to him
This creepy SOB is here for his own reasons. Immortal. Dimension traveler. Cosmic Awareness. Scary as hell
SILVER BANSHEE
Siobhan (shi-VAWN ) McDougal out of Ireland
6 feet, 135 lbs
Her ferocious banshee cry offers a new power set. She can fly, strong as ten men so you better bring at least eleven. Biggest weakness is Jimmy Olson.
MONSIEUR MALLAH
6’3” 345
Hailing from Paris, France
This machine gun toting gorilla’s got brains. Genius level in science, technology, and finance, so we know who will handle the LOD’s 1099s. Mallah is tough, strong, and stylish with a snazzy beret and machine gun belts draped over his shoulders.
These are awesome!
Very nice, Uncle Brett. I do not recall hearing the breakdown of your first pick, Giganta…
GIGANTA
Doris Zuel
Starting at 6’6″, 220 this evil red-haired amazon can go as big as she wants to be. She may be easy on the eyes, but don’t blink, cuz Giganta is here for muscle and mayhem.
Fantastic! But gosh, the stats for Silver Banshee seem way too low. I’ve seen 6’11” 180lbs for the John Byrne version, 8’3″ with the hair.
These are lots of fun to read!!!
This was a blast to listen to. Between Shag’s 47 minute explanation of the rules, Chris’ dead on Howard Cosell impression, Sean’s passive aggressive “oh am I first again?” insouciance, or Brett’s willingness to bring violence, it made for a breezy listen despite being longer than any of the Star Wars films.
I am not voting because I am ethically compromised.
“I am not voting because I am ethically compromised.”
Read as… no one picked Black Manta, so screw you guys.
(I abstain from the free T-Shirt drawing for obvious reasons…)
Fun show, everyone. I suppose Ed McMahon actually had an easier time with Grundy than Mr. Cosell (IYKYK)…
When Mr. Steib had “stolen” the Amazo pick from Uncle Shag, my first thought was, “Hey, Uncle Shag, you could always go with the Composite Superman…” And I suppose Uncle Chris had the same thought. Paragon could had been a more tolerable substitute, I supp– No, wait, even my dad found him intolerable…
Fun fact: Amazo and Composite Superman were two characters never shown in CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS. Artist George Pérez said in an interview in AMAZING HEROES #91, “If the Monitor wanted to use the Legion and the JLA, why not just pull these characters and not bother with the rest? We [Marv and I] left them out deliberately because of that question.”
Hey, Terra Man made the cut… defying expectations. Xum Crew represent!
Thanks for the mention, Isamu.
“Mr. Steib” wasn’t even my dad… maybe my grandfather. You can just call me John. I am consistently impressed by the creativity and the knowledge you bring to the Fire and Water Podcast Network. Just like your dad. ❤️
Devilishly fun episode guys! Easily in my Top 3 FW Draft episodes. A little shocked that Red Dart didn’t get picked right away, though.
is Maxwell Lord a villain? yeah, he is, right?
Also, keep an eye on Sean from AZ. He may be a supervillain.
May be?! I don’t think there’s any doubt.
It matters not what manner of villainy arises. As it was before, so it shall be again. All will kneel before the Powerpuff Girls.
I confess that I’m posting this before having listened to the *whole* of the episode, but fear that I will forget to post if I wait for my next car trip this weekend (which is when I do most of my podcast listening), so I’m going ahead now. If anything I say betrays not having listened to something said by you guys, I can only cry “mea culpa!”
Crafting my own Legion of Doom according to this episode’s rules is a fun thought experiment for me. As I said in my response to the Patreon poll almost a month ago, much would depend on what order I was placed in for the vote. So, I have taken a 10-sided die, ignored 8-10 rolls, and thus given myself a place as one of the now-7 (including the 6 of you actually voting in the episode). This placement will guide all choices that I make. My Classic LoD member will also follow the ranking I set up in that Patreon response (for those who care to go back to that), and none of my other choices would be invalidated by any vote that would have come before my vote in each round.
So, my roll was….3! Thus after Sean and Chris, and thus my first choice of Bizarro remains on the board (of course, I have no idea who John would have chosen had I stolen Bizarro out from under him. My thought experiment can only go so far…). I’m going closer to the Challenge of the Superfriends depiction of Bizarro. While the negative-speak can be fun in short bits, I find it wears thin pretty quickly, and can alienate readers trying to think too hard about what Bizarro *really* intends when he says things. My Bizarro is more of a brute who can follow orders if necessary.
My “middle five” are: Multiplex, The Ventriloquist (specifically, it would be fun to use the Peyton Riley version, admitting that she’s quite obscure), Vandal Savage, Poison Ivy (definitely one of the plant-controlling versions, but I’m not too particular), and Killer Frost (specifically the Crystal Frost version). I didn’t *intentionally* avoid characters used by the rest of you, but since it worked out that way, it makes the question of “would they have still been available?” pretty simple.
My choice of Lex Luthor would have been the one played by Clancy Brown in the first season of STAS, but since Chris Franklin’s choice of the DCAU version precludes him (by the standards I’ve set for myself), I’m instead going with the John Shea version.
You’ll note that several of my choices (Ventriloquist, Savage, and Shea-as-Luthor) are strategists. That’s by design, although I concede that it may be heavy in that vein. I think that each brings a sufficiently different style to the table that, between them, they will be able to devise many different ways to destroy the heroes, and Bizarro, Multiplex, Ivy, and Frost have diverse enough abilities to cover implementation.
I would have LOVED to choose Sinestro as another extremely versatile team member, but being forbidden from choosing more than a single LoD member, he loses out simply by being way down my list of “first” Classic LoD choices… Most of those “firsts” would never have been on my team as a “second choice” (that is, even though Solomon Grundy was my second-top choice, once I got Bizarro, I was never going to choose Grundy for the team even if otherwise allowed), but I considered Sinestro a utility player, not a top rank.
The last rule I set for myself (even though, by your rules, he might have been allowed) was that I was never going to choose the Joker. Although we ARE trying to pick team members who’d make for an interesting dynamic to read about, and I think that the Joker (pre-2011, at least) generally fits that bill, he’s just NOT a team player.
Continuing with this thought exercise, if I had the opportunity to vote on the question of “Is Max Lord a villain?” I’d have voted “yes.” Acknowledging Shag’s argument that he was created to be a “hero” (if a complex one) and was so for the better part of a decade, I would posit that, once the “Countdown” retcon was in place, Max remained a villain forever after that, including ALL of his appearances in other media (to the best of my knowledge, of course).
Conversely, I imagine that, if I tried to choose the Caitlyn Snow version of Killer Frost, I’d be rightly voted down on the basis that she’s spent more time now as a hero than as a villain.
I trust that this team of villains would indeed bring some interesting story possibilities to the table, as was the stated intention.
Brett’s team gets my vote. It’s an interesting mix of characters with varying power levels and motivations. They create a visual mix that gives each character a distinct, dynamic purpose.
My picks would’ve been:
1) Giganta (Back Up: Cheetah)
2) Lady Shiva
3) Enchantress
4) Floronic Man
5) Terra Man
6) Byth
7) Lex/Braniax hybrid from Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?
Alternates: Sportsmaster, Tigress, Kestrel, The Thinker, Hector Hammond, Madame Rouge
Please let me know who I need to beg, cajole, or bribe to be part of the inevitable Titans draft.
Excellent choice! The momentum is growing for my LOD!
My leftovers draft team starts with Sinestro. This is going to be a team of mostly leaders, not so much powerhouses, set up for a single mission.
So the middle five: Vandal Savage, Per Degaton, Universo, Krona, and the Queen of Fables.
Lots of lexes(Kingdom Come, the original Death of Superman) to pick from left on the table, I think that the All-Star Luthor is the strongest one.
We’re doing time travel shenanigans here, going to split human history into seven domains ruled with iron fists.
They probably fight a JLA put together by Booster Gold.
Marvel is going to be rough. The masters of evil are not exactly a team of A-listers, maybe not even B-listers. But there isn’t really an A-list villain team; the Norman Osborn-led Thunderbolts/Dark Avengers is as close as you get. Maybe go specific, but if you did Brotherhood of Evil Mutants you spend the episode arguing if Magneto counts. Maybe a Sinister Six, where everyone has to have fought Spider-man in a Spider-man book?
My vote goes to Sean’s killer team of killers.
Brett’s team gets my vote but only beats Sean’s by a Giganta 🙂
My picks would be The Banana Republic of Doom. Luthor seeks to subjugate all of humanity and focuses on guerilla warfare 🙂
1. Parasite
2. Monsieur Mallah
3. Gorilla Grodd
4. Titano the Super-Ape
5. Ultra Humanite
6. Circe
7. Lex Luthor – Batman/Superman Dawn of Justice – crazy in the coconut.
Thanks, Gehrigan! Giganta rules!
Had I participated in this draft, and let’s just say I drafted last in every round or however so I couldn’t select any of the 42 characters you took, my draft order would have been:
1. Cheetah for the OG Legion of Doom representation, but Sinestro and Manta were tempting. I would have Cheetah the way Alex Ross drew her in JUSTICE, where the stitches of the cheetah-skin suit are visible and the blood trickling down the sides of her face give her the tear look that the animals have.
2. Shadow Thief — classic Kubert style
3. Parasite
4. Killer Frost — classic formal dress style
5. Enchantress — from the Suicide Squad comic with the big green witch hat
6. Floronic Man, but I really strongly considered Dr. Polaris, Firefly and Atomic Skull.
7. I guess my Lex Luthor would be from the 1989 Toy Biz figure that had a purple suit jacket. I don’t know if I ever saw that particular look anywhere else in the cartoons or comics.
I believe the Purple-Suit-Jacket Lex was in the 1988 Superman Saturday morning cartoon…
An excellent listen, chaps! I wonder how much time you get to prepare for these marathon episodes – calculating all the permutations of characters must take an age, and I really appreciated the variety of villains you put forward.
However, I’m going to place my vote for Sean’s “Murderer’s Row Legion of Doom”, for the reason that it takes a pretty goofy concept and adds a sense of sinister menace by recruiting canonical killers. (Honourable mention to the “Cheeri-O’s” Legion of Doom too, but for me it dropped the ball by not fully realising the “Name Ends in an O” theme, no matter how cool it would be to see Ragdoll in a team book again).
Shag – I do feel your pain about Maxwell Lord, as Justice League America was one of my first comic book passions.
However, let me remind you that I read one metric tonne of pretty terrible Lord Havok comics for your Bwah-Ha-Ha podcast’s Spotlight feature, so I speak with no small degree of background knowledge when I say – I believe that Max is definitely a villain now. Shooting Ted Kord in the head was merely the blood-spattered cherry on top of the background of years having been controlled by the leader of The Extremists.
Perhaps it’s fairest to say that the definition between hero and villain is a little more… fluid in the DCU than it is in real life – Lobo is probably not making it onto anyone’s list of villains, but his origin story is that he murdered everyone else on his home planet for a science project! Not typically viewed as heroic behaviour, I’d suggest.
For me there’s really only one question that needs answering: “Would I like to see more stories and comic books with this character?” Nosebleed Maxwell Lord?
Yes! Yes, I would… thank you!
Once on the team, the writer can do whatever they want – maybe even set up Max as a Justice League mole into this LoD and give him a redemption arc. Or not. Just as long as it’s an entertaining and innovative story, I’d be there for it!
Thanks again gents – looking forward to the next one (…The Ultimate Teen Titans, perhaps?)
Thanks for the honourable mention, Chris.
I’ll be honest, I was tempted during the recording to stick to my own “theme” with Despero or Eclipso or Mano (and, of course, Sinestro wasn’t available and Metallo had been picked,) but I really, really wanted Terra Man and Rag Doll on my team, so I made a “game time” decision that I’ll have to live with. Regardless, I appreciate your comment.
OK, now that I’ve finished listening to the entire episode, I’m ready to place my vote for the best team among your slates:
With apologies to the other players, I’m going with Sean’s slate. Ultimately, the idea of a Legion of Doom consisting entirely of members who have killed at least one superhero (with the possible exception of President Luthor, but although I am unpersuaded by the logic of “He’s the President, therefore he’s murdered lots of people,” it is beyond dispute that this Luthor was a murderer many times over even before becoming President. The ONLY question is whether or not any of those deaths are superheroes) is more compelling than any of the others.
With regard to the Official Sean Ross Tesla Strong Award (TM), and with apologies to Shag, but while Ian Karkull *might* be considered obscure everywhere else in the world, he simply cannot be said to be obscure to regular listeners of shows on the Fire and Water Network. You guys have talked (complained) about him far too often on so many of your shows!
“We’re building teams of 7, because if we did 13 the show would be 6 hours long, and no one wants to listen to that.” WRONG! This show was an amazing listen, so I would gladly have listened for larger teams. But I completely understand if you all didn’t want to record a show that long.
“Ian Karkull.” I legit laughed out loud at that pick.
I don’t want Max Lord to be a villain, but he’s probably just passed the tipping point in publication years of being villain longer than hero. Sigh.
My LoD was already posted on the Patreon, and I’m too lazy to look it up to post here. But have no fear, it’s just as lame as my team from the Avengers draft.
Ok, the teams from the draft:
Sean’s Lethal Legion: Too far into the theme. Deadly and good picks for that goals. But the heroes would be extra motivated to take them down, and the refrain “you killed so-and-so” would feel one note and not make for an entertaining read for me.
Chris’s Legion of Doom Unlimited (LoDU): Interesting mix and line-up, but Composite Superman breaks the balance and is overpowered for the group. Roxy is a fun concept, but is she actually useful when she’s not flying on a rocket?
Paul’s Legion of Who(?): I swear I recognized 100% of the characters named while listening, but looking at this line-up image, I have no idea who “looks like Raven but with belts and straps” is. The rest just don’t speak to me except for Brainiac.
Shag’s Legion of Zoom: Great mix of powers and personalities, plus backstabbing potential galore, and being a legit threat to the League without reaching overkill status.
John’s Legion o’ Doom-o: Some good ideas here, but feels terribly impractical to have two kaiju characters and the overpowered Amazo, so it has balance issues. Plus how do you keep Starro from fishing control of the group? It’d be the Legion of Starro pretty quickly.
Brett’s Cleavage of Doom: Nice mix of characters and powers, potential for teamwork and powerplays. (I see a Baron Zemo-Moonstone dynamic between Luthor and Grace.) They could be challenge for any super friends.
That gets it down to 2 choices, and solely by favorite villains because we are talking about which team I’d enjoy reading in a comic, my vote is for Brett’s roster. Congratulations, you are officially an Outcast! … wait …
I too am in for the 6 hour long episodes or broken up in to a few episodes. After all the NFL draft takes 3 days…
Thanks, Tim. I embrace my Outcast status!
wait wait liberity legion draft? I’M IN
Loved the episode. Particularly the mind trick that Sean managed to pull again – I mean did that piece of paper actually read his name or did he just use super hypnosis or Jedi powers?
My choice of winning team is …. Brett, I would read the heck out of that comic, However did he have Dan Mora on art ? With that cast? Surely Adam Hughes. Terry Dodson and Amanda Conner on a rotating art team per arc would be perfect for this. Sports Master is an inspired choice because it’s going to sell as it allows for cameos from every major sports star available. A heist during the Monaco Grand Prix for example. So once again Shag is wrong.
As for my own selection, my disadvantage is that we ever had Super friends of any flavour available on our TV in the UK. I have seen a few on vacation but not many. Still with that being said had I been in the draft and picked after Brett.
1. Toyman – The super super creepy version from DCAU that mask…. shiver. He also gets to make the LOD HQ a Mecha or anything else a Mecha. I’d make his toys based on the crazy nonsense of the 80s toy lines. Dino Riders, Transformers, Visionaries, GI Joe etc.
2. Mr Mind – Again a super creepy villain who looks silly but sinister in his actions.
3. Dreamslayer – of the Extremists.
4. Cheshire – You need someone who can go into infiltration mode and also I never got her deal – I’d want to know more about her real motivations.
5. I wanted a Titans Villain and Phobia was really high up there… then then I thought I want a team that makes you uneasy and you can’t figure out their motivations….
Terra.
6. Poison Ivy – You need a Batman villain at some point and you want one who can warp your sense of reality – can well she can be very … creepy
7. Luthor …. I would try and cheat and ask for Alex Luthor from Infinite Crisis but if he wasn’t available due to not be a proper lex…. I’d go with Smallville’s Lex Luthor towards the end of the run just before the mind wipe thing where he was absolutely taken down a dark dark path.
This team wouldn’t be traditionally a bunch of criminals for heists they would be working on something more sinister maybe would end up going more against Justice League Dark as they try to perhaps gain power or punish heroes or more likely trying to open portals for Lovecraftian like monsters.
Alexander Luthor doesn’t sound like a cheat to me. Perhaps Shag or one of the others can even confirm if he was specifically named as one of the available options….
Thanks, Doug. You’re my favorite Scot!
What a fantastic show! Excellent work, nice job keeping the conversation on point. I like all of these lineups and would devour a story featuring any of them.
But my vote goes to Chris. His group seems to perfectly straddle the line between threatening and goofy (that Super Friends cover sells it beautifully), with a good mix of standby villains and colorful wildcards. Luthor and the Humanite argue, Composite Supes goes rogue, and Scarecrow and Roxie are too wrapped up in their own priorities to stay on task. Meanwhile, Shade vacillates between staying loyal or undermining everything, and Karkull freaks everyone out.
My runner-up is probably John’s team—I think it might be great fun watching COTS Luthor trying to keep control of the four monsters, while rolling his eyes at Rag Doll and Terra-Man’s silliness. And I’m also intrigued by Paul’s lineup—at first blush, that’s a pretty incongruous mix of egos and agendas, but a good writer can get a lot of drama out of the potential backstabbing and double-crossing.
For my lineup, I prefer my supervillain teams to be a dark mirror of the hero group, so I tried for the classic “One enemy of each of the heroes,” basing it on the Big 7. Following the rules, my team would be…
— Power Suit Luthor (the best physical match for Superman)
— Giganta (my COTL Legion member and a worthy Wonder Woman foe)
— Prometheus (while not strictly a Batman enemy, I love this dude as “the evil Batman who focuses on the JLA”)
— Reverse-Flash (duh)
— Star Sapphire (good opposite of GL, both with the powers and the drama of her identity; although Emerald Empress would be an interesting pick for this slot)
— Marine Marauder (my deepest cut: I’m not sure she’s even an Aquaman villain, but she matches his powers, I wanted another woman, and her costume is cool)
— Amazo (a tactical big gun, and good match for J’onn)
I also thought of a joke version of the Legion: Not quite as silly as the old Giffen/DeMatteis Injustice League, but with a goofy element that could make for a really fun, JLU-style adventure…
— Gene Hackman Luthor
— Cheetah (my COTL member; she’s the semicompetent who wonders why she puts up with these idiots)
— Signalman (all-time greatest silly Bat-villain)
— Rainbow Raider (for the Flash)
— Javelin (a GL enemy; I think this dude could easily be written as a clown—javelins, really?—and he’s great for a fight scene)
— Marine Marauder (she works for goofy just as well as serious)
— Composite Superman (multipowered guy to face J’onn; just as powerful as Amazo but ten times more ridiculous).
I accept the logic, but I have a ton of trouble thinking of Maxwell Lord as a villain—the only examples of that I’ve read are Infinite Crisis (ugh) and Wonder Woman 1984 (I maintain, ugh). I also find it hard to imagine him working with Lex—any incarnation, really—but like I say, I’d give any of these lineups a shot.
Finally, my vote for most obscure pick goes to Spirit King (I want to say Veronica Cale or Grail, neither of whom I’d heard of, but that’s probably because I’m an old man who mostly reads only only comics). I’ve always like Mr. Terrific, and while I don’t have a problem with them killing him off, I wish they’d used an established villain rather than making up someone new. It always seemed disrespectful to me. And I maintain that Karkull is NOT obscure: The dude got a Who’s Who entry in Update 87, was mentioned a dozen times in the text of the original WW, and was even name-checked on the Dr. Fate Super Powers info card as one of his villains. (Similar for I.Q., who’s on Hawkman’s card). And Shag, you said Yellow Peri is an extreme deep cut, but she made it to live action decades before the Arrowverse blew those doors open. (She was in the late-’80s syndicated Superboy series.)
Looking forward to the Teen Titans Draft (any DC teen hero, but only one of the original five) and the JSA Draft (any golden age hero, but only one of the All-Star #3 lineup).
Marine Marauder was soo close for my line up. Nice break down.
Thanks Noah. You have great taste!
A) This was the best medicine for a rough week. Laughed hard, loud, and often. Not always in that order.
2) Every version of the legion presented here was top notch, and really shows that everybody did their homework, and didn’t go with a cookie-cutter line up.
C) Definitely psyched at the very potential of a Legion superhero draft. Even started playing with ground rules; such as everybody has to take one of the founding members in the first round, including Superboy and Supergirl
D) Sean’s line-up and concept would be the book I would pick up. Each member of his Legion was a Bonafede cape-killer, and this would be a dark series, but the creative team would offset the inherent Scorsese feel.
My vote:
Starro–Chemo–TerraMan–Ragdoll–Amazo–Bizarro
My Legion:
Earth 2 Luthor — Riddler — Shadow Thief — New Wave — Madame Rouge — Floronic Man –The Wizard
My Runners Up: Ghost (Alec Rois) — Typhoon — Dr. Cyber — Plasmus — Killer Frost
Thank you, Alex!
I have replayed this entire episode 3 times now. I cannot tell you how much fun I had playing along and trying to predict your choices and laughing wildly at the oddballs you all put on your teams.
Sean: I love that your roll for initiative is so hight that you always go first. Great concept for a team of killers!
Chris: A team of misfit toys! Roxy Rocket? Composite Superman! Ian Karkull!
Paul: The big brain group! It says something when Bane is probably the least conniving member of your team.
Shag: Great team no notes.
John: I love the name ending with O concept, then you add on Rag Doll and Terra Man. Shut up and take my money.
Brett: Somehow going last you still got one of the best Legion of Doom characters for your first pick and the hits kept coming. Your scouting reports for each character are a highlight every time I listen.
It’s a very tight competition and I would love to read all six versions of this team but for my money I’m going to go with…
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…John Steib! In the end the emotional pull of Terra Man and Rag Doll as Booster and Beatle of thier team won out.
By the second time listening I had already started to second guess my own team but I decided to stick with an all female version:
Cheetah-Dr. Barbara Minerva from the Perez era.
Poison Ivy-More human less plant goddess.
Killer Frost-A mixture of classic and CW Arrowverse Caitlin Snow.
Live Wire- Superman TAS version.
Knockout-Female Fury that hangs out in Hawaii.
Queen of Fables-Uses her teammates as heroes/villains in her stories.
Lena Luthor-At least my Luthor can’t be confused with anyone else’s pick.
Thank you, Jason! Like I said during the draft, it was tough for me to break from the “O” theme I had going (and Paul noticed it pretty quick,) but I wanted those two favorite villains of mine and had them on my list way back when I sat down and started brainstorming. I appreciate the support!
O.K my team is Black Adam (Pre Crisis) like in the Superman/ Shazam treasury.
Giganta ( Pre Crisis/ Superfriends) good idea Brett.
Killer Frost original Crystal Frost version
BTAS Harley Quinn the original version to drive Lex crazy
Captain Boomerang and original version Golden Glider
Power Suit Lex
With Black Adam and Lex fighting over Leadership.
I like Brett’s and Chris teams the best. Shag, I consider the JLI Maxwell Lord to be a hero and the villian one to be another guy from another earth or a clone. Only way I can justify it. Oh, Ian Karkull is kind of loser probably get beaten by Aquaman and a Sharknado at some point.
Thanks, Nate! I’ll take the tie with Chris.
Clearly the standards for the Justice League have been in a steady decline since 1984 if they’ve flat out allowed villains in.
I had a lot of “who dat” in my inner monologue while listening to this. Often augmented by “dafuq?”
My choice for Best L.O.D. from this draft is John’s. His was the only team whose full roster was known to me! I also liked his them, even incomplete. I quibble with Sean’s choices because 1: I hold the The Mist is an unreliable narrator. This is my head canon for that story. I’ve been waiting for an opportunity to present it somewhere! She never killed those heroes. 2: The Spirit King; I’m still mad about it. See Noah’s cogent explanation above. Not a real villain. Not a fair locked room mystery. Somehow it is the only event in pre-Crisis DC that actually happened!
Had I participated, all of my draft choices would have been safe.
1. Faora Hu-ul. Straight out of the Phantom Zone, this misanthropic martial arts mistress of psychic lightning has nothing but contempt for all men, Kryptonians or Earthlings.
2. Captain Nazi. Joining Faora in constructing concentration camps for those he feels are beneath him. Pretty much everybody.
3. Floronic Man. Another being who holds all humans in contempt.
4. Silver Ghost. Another damn monarchist who thinks he deserves everything because he belongs to the lucky sperm club. Complete disrespect for anyone else.
5. The Wizard. A charter member of the first gathering of super-villains. The man who defeated Superman, and defeated the JSA (who were saved by a non-member). also a sneaky back-stabber in this kind of group.
6. Mirror Master. All tricks are “done with mirrors.” One of those villains whose gimmick is only limited by a writer’s imagination. If he wasn’t in the cartoon, swap in someone else who was.
7. The only Lex Luthor that I recognize, Elliot S! Maggin’s Luthor. Read about him in Last Son of Krypton or in Lexcorp. Or listen to Elliot read them on his podcast! (Recommended!) The Luthor who, in one of his many fake identities, has large sculptures installed on the grounds of art museums, labelled as art but are actually spaceships and other weapons. Another jerk who thinks he’s better than everyone else and doesn’t care who gets caught up in his machinations.
Great illustrations, Brett! However my favorite is Chris’s cover! (For the backup story!)
Thank you, Terry!
So I listened twice to this episode in order to soak in all the LOD goodness. As for my favorite team, it’s between Shag and Chris. Ultimately, I’m going w/ Chris’s group. They have an ape (Ultra-Humanite), my favorite Bat-villain (Scarecrow), and The Shade along with Ian Karkull for additional shady dealings.
My team and plot would be as follows: Lex Luthor assembles a team to help conquer the world and each member will get their own continent to play with.
Luthor, having been the President of the United States, will now be the President of North America.
Poison Ivy will have South America where she will set up her own realm of nothing but plant life.
Felix Faust will take Europe and transform it into a land of sorcery and magic
Kilg%re will be given Asia which will become a hi-tech homeland
Grodd takes Africa and will expand Gorilla City throughout the continent
Dr. Psycho rules Australia and makes it into a giant Playboy mansion where women exist to cater to his every whim
Killer Frost reigns over Antarctica where she feels perfectly at home in the icy climate
Various members of the JLA will have to fight to free the planet continent by continent, perhaps with a bit of help from some of the Global Guardians. I did think of Cyborg Superman in place of Kilg%re and Hector Hammond instead of Dr. Psycho, but ultimately decided to go with the above team.
Great show and I can’t wait for the next one!
Thanks for another great show. It’s fun to talk about all of the great villains from DC.
I liked Sean’s twist with them all being hero killers, but my vote goes to Shag.
Without a doubt, Sean Ross’ Killer Team has the best hook. So that’s my vote.
But Brett’s cleavage team was a close second …
I was also surprised that no big guns – Darkseid, Mongul, Despero – were taken. But if the point is for this to be a title, they overpower just as much as The Joker.
1. Lex Luthor ( Legion of Doom / Purple Power Suit )
2. Black Manta (Modern Day)
3. Circe (Modern Day)
4. Sinestro (Modern Day)
5. Deadshot (Modern Day)
6. Reverse Flash / Eobard Thawne (Modern Day)
7. Major Force (Modern Day)
Four of the teams included at least one character that didn’t work for me, so I was able to whittle my choice of winner down to two in short order. I went back and forth between Shag and Brett’s teams, and I briefly considered having the two teams battle it out in the HeroClix arena. Rather than taking that drastic step, I took one more look at the teams and decided that Shag wins because he has Grodd.
Now for my team. The concept: HBO Max has ordered a new, 13-episode season of JLU. Luthor has quietly acquired nearly all of Cadmus’s science, tech and intel, and has decided to put it to use by destroying the Justice League. In order to take out the League’s biggest guns, he recruits a team of villains (all of whom previously appeared in Justice League or JLU) to attack them guerilla warfare-style. It will be revealed that Luthor is using different teams to attack different groups of heroes, but the show will only focus on one team. Batman has been assigned to a different team (Legion of Death? Legion of Destruction? I don’t know), because let’s face it, none of us want Batman voiced by someone other than Kevin Conroy. The Legion will gain the advantage early, and will maintain it for most of the series, and will only lose it through a combination of hubris, envy, and in-fighting. Anyway, here’s the team:
Sinestro
Galatea
Livewire
Tsukuri
Circe
Mirror Master
Lex Luthor
From the Cutting Room Floor:
As I mentioned during the episode, aside from my “Big O” Legion o’ Doom, I had a blast creating multiple line-ups of DC villains. Some were chosen for the theme of that particular batch and some were just there because I like them. Some of the characters did show up on my list or someone else’s list. And, since this was just for fun, I didn’t always limit myself to only seven members.
Here goes:
The Anti-Justice League (of Doom) – Bizarro, Prometheus, Circe, Black Manta, Reverse Flash, Sinestro, and Malefic.
Nothing But Monsters Legion of Doom – Grodd, Shaggy Man, Solomon Grundy, Man-Bat, Chemo, Darkseid, Black Hand, the Anti-Monitor, Mr. Mind, and Doomsday
A Thinking Man’s Legion of Doom – Luthor, Brainiac, Sivana, Calculator, Ra’s Al Ghul, Riddler, and Mr. Mind
It’s All Fun and Games Until Someone Loses an Eye (or Worse) Legion of Doom – Joker, Mr. Mxyztplk, Prankster, Trickster, Harley Quinn, and the Toyman
Femme Fatale Legion of Doom – Cheetah, Poison Ivy, Silver Banshee, Live Wire, Golden Glider, Star Sapphire, and Lena Luthor
Roy G. Bivolo’s Legion of Doom – Red Hood, Agent Orange, Yellow Peri, Green Fairy, Blue Snowman, Indigo (from the Outsiders,) and Violet (a Robin villain.)
Wildlife Critters of Doom – Black Manta or Cheetah, Killer Croc, King Shark, Hyena, Copperhead, Turtle, Turtle Man, Human Flying Fish, Catman, Professor Pyg, Silver Swan, and, of course, Lex Lemur.
Dark, Dark, Darkety Dark Legion of Doom – Black Manta, Black Spider, Black Adam, Black Beetle, Manchester Black, Black Mask, Blackfire, Black Rock, Black Hand, Black Bison, and Black Racer.
Again, thanks to everyone who listened. It was so much fun to be a part of this and I appreciate everyone who commented on here, as well.
As far as the O Team goes, there was an O Squad in Justice League America Annual #8, where T.O. Morrow gets kicked out because he’s an “ow” and not an “o”, bu Dan Vado and Evan Dorkin.
My pick for the best is Chris Franklin. They’re all pretty great, but the reworked Super Friends cover sold it for me.
For my draft,
Sinestro was my LOD pick. He can do anything Green Lantern can do but yellow, including creating Gold Kryptonite.
Emerald Empress was one of my picks, because I love the Legion and their good villains.
Reverse-Flash was one as well.
The Construct. He’d be so much more powerful these days.
Cliff Carmichael as the second Thinker.
Felix Faust for magic, He’s an OG JLA villain, and would not be happy about the state of current villainy,
My Luthor would be Challenge Luthor, specifically from the episode where he travel;ed back in time and jacked Hal Jordan’s origin, becoming the Green Luthor. You said any version.
My vote goes to Shawn’s “Legion of Doom (and Murder)” for having a great, grim, gritty high concept.
If “death in corporate superhero comics” meant anything, I would draft up a “Legion of (the) Doom(ed)” wherein all of the members were villains that had once died, but at this point…how many haven’t? How many haven’t died more than once, even?
Awesome draft. tons of fun to listen to, gang.