Siskoid and Shag’s coverage of Marvel Team-Up continues with issue #59 (July 1977) by Chris Claremont, John Byrne and Dave Hunt, starring Spider-Man, Yellowjacket and the Wasp! It’s “Some Say Spidey Will Die by Fire… Some Say by Ice!”. Starting on the Claremont/Byrne collaborations as of this episode! Don’t act like you didn’t ask for it…
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Yay! One of my favorite characters is here to team up with Spider-Man! I adore Janet Van Dyne and have lots to say… but… I guess we’re waiting to the next installment.
Yellowjacket… Yellowjacket… OK. Let’s address the the elephant in the room. Janet has long ago forgiven Hank. If she can forgive him, who are we to keep them from moving past it. Domestic abuse is of course a horrible thing. When the story was written, it was an attempt to tell a story and expand the characters. As you gentlemen pointed out, it made Janet stronger. I feel if the same thing was done today, it would simply be done for shock value. Get people talking and increase sales for a few issues. It would simply be a cheap and vulgar publicity stunt. As for Yellowjacket as a character, at that time all I knew about him was that he was on the Marvel Superheroes Lunchbox I had in kindergarten. Much like you guys, I didn’t get to know Hank until West Coast Avengers
Theme Tune Idea:
Spider-Man, Spider-Man
Does whatever a real-life spider can
Yellowjacket and Wasp, Caught in his web
Dissolves their internal organs, They are dead
Watch Out! The shortest issue of Marvel Team-Up Evverrrr!
(needs work.)
Thanks for an entertaining discussion, guys.
So… rehabilitation for Hank Pym, eh?
I’m no Marvel fanboy, so I might be missing some character nuance here, but allow me to suggest a parallel DC Universe character who might offer a rehabilitation blueprint: Ted Knight.
Hear me out: Both superheroes of long-standing. Both genius scientists. Both have been subjected to a retconned history of … shall we say shaky mental health, Both have been portrayed as less than respectful of the institution of marriage.
(To be clear, I’m not equating Ted having an affair with Black Canary with Pym’s history of domestic violence, but neither exactly lives up to the superheroic ideal in their personal lives, do they?)
Some thoughts on how to detoxify Hank Pym:
Proposal 1) Age Hank up. Properly and permanently. Let’s lean into the Michael Douglas here… it’s not like there hasn’t already been a swarm of alternative younger Ant-Men ready and raring to take on the legacy. Hank is an elderly statesman now, mellowed by his experiences as a costumed hero. He’s not an active hero any longer, but can handle himself (perhaps with the aid of a gadget or two) if personally threatened.
Proposal 2) Hire a skilled and sensitive female writer to work with established experts in the field of Domestic Violence to develop a respectful resolution story for both Janet and Hank. I know from my own patients that Domestic Violence is something more common than is recognised, and portrayal in a fictional tale could raise awareness of both the issues and the real world support available to those involved. This, of course, would need to be handled extremely sensitively, which is why bringing in experts in the field could help to bring new and genuine perspectives to enrich the story and give it authenticity. It would also require a really talented writer to handle the complex emotional beats of such a story. Survivors of Domestic Violence are inevitably changed by their experiences, but can be amazing in their resilience, and it would make for a powerful story that could give both characters a new trajectory.
Proposal 3) Lean into the Science. I see what Marvel are doing with the Scientist Supreme thing, but the whole idea about the scientific method is that it’s a collaborative effort. One person’s results need to be confirmed and corroborated by others to prove that they are true. It’s not like one guy can burst in and say “I wear the Lab Coat of Aggamotto and screw your research… What I Say Goes!!” Have Hank gather a brains trust of all the best Marvel scientists to crack difficult problems… without donning Spandex. Their failures could be as devastating as the problems they are trying to solve.
I think that this was my first Spider-Man comic as well as my first encounter with John Byrne art. I had read Claremont on the X-Men just a month or so before this. Hank Pym had been the focus of my first Avengers comic #161 w/ the fantastic George Perez cover of him as Ant-Man growing to regular size and punching Cap and Black Panther while the ants scramble all over the rest of the team. He was having a nervous breakdown/mental issues in that story so I think I had the impression that this was a central part of his character. I always liked the Yellowjacket costume since I first saw it on my Marvel Super-Heroes lunchbox.
One of the most heartbreaking images/pages in comics IMHO is in the JLA/Avengers story. All the heroes are seeing bits of their future trials and hardships. Superman sees his death, Hal Jordan sees himself becoming Parallax, Iron Man sees his alcoholism, Vision and Scarlet Witch see how they lost their twins etc. Hank sees himself smack Jan and just says quietly, “Oh Jan …” Absolutely, gut wrenching.
I will have to look for MTU #60 for the next episode since I’ve never read it.
Very excited for this next phase of the book because I was buying this era of MTU off the rack whenever I could. As I have said, this run cemented my love of the Super-Skrull and Tigra. In particular the two-parter with Super-Skrull and the two parter with Iron Fist/Daughters of the Dragon definitely are living in my head. Love them both immensely.
I did get this issue out of a dollar box and was immediately struck by the ‘sexy time’ pages. Hank, Spidey can save himself. (Perhaps, given his character, Hank has performance anxiety?)
A couple more things.
The title is definitely a riff on Robert Frost’s poem ‘Fire and Ice’, a favorite of mine.
Hank Pym’s albatross – Shag has talked about the albatross effect on characters and yes, Hank is tainted by this. I wish it was just forgotten. Otherwise, I do think that people have tried to say ‘therapy helped’ and Janet has forgiven him. So I wish it was ‘forgotten’ in that way – he’s better. But couldn’t he just have been a Skrull? SOOOOO MUCH EASIER!!!
I will once again say that MTU #61 is ONE OF MY FAVORITE ISSUES EVER!
I know that new comics aren’t so en Vogue here, but with a new Firestorm comic on the shelves I think Shag and Rob need to record a podcast about it.
Bring back Fire and Water!
I invite your to bug them directly, maybe on a Who’s Who Podcast post. Every day, over and over.
Siskoid and Shag,
Another fun episode. I love that you will cover the Claremont/Byrne issues, which are a highlight of the series.
To my knowledge, Janet’s increased power level isn’t mentioned formally until the Stern/Buscema run of the Avengers (the best Avengers run). In that run, Jan is training with the Black Knight and he runs some tests that show that her stinger is much more powerful and she can now keep her wings and fly even when a foot tall, which makes it easier for her to lead in the field.
Great episode! If someone is looking for a definitive Hank Pym storyline, I would recommend West Coast Avengers 1-25, which is his redemption arc and starts his time in his Dr. Pym alias.
Dick Grayson matches Hank Pym for major aliases, but Jimmy Olsen is likely the champion there.
Actually, the title probably has to go to one of the H-dial wearers. Not sure if it’s Robby or Chris and Vicky; Robby had a longer run but the later pair more consistently had an alias and logo for each identity.
Turtle (boy) Power!
In the mid-late 1980s, they reprinted the whole Claremont/Byrne MTU run in Marvel Tales starring the Sensational Spider-Man (how’s that for a way-long comic title?) and they were among the first superhero comics I ever read. I’m excited you guys are covering this run, they are fun superhero comics. Highlights for me are the team ups with Havok, Thor, Iron Fist, and Captain Britain.
For decades I’d only read the 2nd part of this team-up with Yellowjacket and Wasp, yet I never felt the need to track down part 1 until I happened upon it on Marvel Unlimited. You guys may find that part 2 holds up pretty well as a solo issue if it had to!
The power upgrades Jan gets here were really only used in the Avengers during the Roger Stern run. After that, pretty much every writer has her tiny with an ineffectual sting. Because everything has to be the way it was in the 1960s. Same with Hank and Jan getting back together (which we can blame Byrne for in his WCA run, which was mighty regressive overall). It’s a shame because writers like Stern and Engelhart put a lot of time and effort into rehabbing Hank. It definitely wasn’t overnight and he went to some pretty dark places. But he and Jan had become friends and I really wish other writers had let it stay there. I think Black Knight or Paladin are much more interesting love interests for Jan.
Like you guys, Hank was the WCA tech guy and HQ manager when I first started reading comics. The situation fascinated me as a kid bc it hinted at a deep story history I wasn’t yet privy to but would intrigue me and I would discover over time. I have no idea why they thought it was a good idea to return him to Giant-Man in the 1990s. A superhero who shrinks and grows other objects and keeps tons of useful gadgets shrunk in his pockets is a unique concept. Let the villainous Goliath/Atlas be the growing guy, and let Scott Lang and Rita DeMara be Ant-Man and Yellowjacket, respectively. They’re both far more interesting in those roles than Hank ever was.
Yes, the Avengers did call Hank “high-pockets”.
You guys were hard on poor Equinox. A guy with the powers of both Iceman and Human Torch is a serious threat, and he has a cool look! And really, if he’s lame, doesn’t it follow that Johnny and Bobby are lame, too? Just a thought. Equinox would be a good Fightful Four or Masters of Evil member.
Heroes with as many identities as Hank? Hmm, there are only a few I can think of that come close:
Captain Marvel, Photon, Spectrum, Pulsar
Ms Marvel, Binary, Warbird, Captain Marvel
Phoenix, Marvel Girl, Prestige
Sprite, Ariel, Shadowcat
Wonder Girl, Troia, Darkstar (and wasn’t she Wonder Woman at some point?)
Robin, Nightwing, Batman
Spider-Woman II, Arachne, Madame Web
Green Lantern, Guy Gardner, Warrior
Yeah Hank seems to be the winner, with Ant-Man, Giant-Man, Goliath, Yellowjacket, Dr Pym, and Wasp
And yes, Hank as Yellowjacket could shrink like Wasp. I think he even does it briefly in one of the pages you posted…the one where Equinox is slamming Spidey into a wall.
I think Equinox is trying to swat the Wasp in that panel, I don’t see it. But good confirmation.
1. spider-man often rolls very badily in Marvel team up
2 YELLow jacket looks like a bad guy cuz he was “what hank pym turns into with head trama,
3 ooh team up Yellowjacket Terror inc cuz Terror robs egghead’s grave. Somehow i’d love to work in the golden age Yellowjacket from Target comics
In the troubling relationship between Jan and Hank, the slap everyone refers to is really a footnote. Like all of the features created between Hulk and X-Men (except Spider-man, who got delayed after his debut), Ant-Man was created by first-stringers and then handed over to free-lancers after a few issues. Without Larry Lieber (or Stan) working with Kirby, Hank’s adventures became meh pretty quick. He was given a female counterpart to make him distinctive from both the other Marvel characters and the Atom at DC. Jan was introduced in a story that borrowed the premise of the first “Thin Man” movie in which the daughter of a murdered scientist asks William Powell to investigate the crime. The Ant-Man story combined that character with the detective’s wife, Myrna Loy, to make Jan, who was drawn somewhat like Loy. In the original Hammett novel, he wrote the husband and wife team (Nick and Nora) in a way that reflected his own contentious relationship with Lillian Hellman. The studio hired another husband and wife team to write the screenplay, telling them to emphasize the banter between the couple. This would be a great premise for a super-hero series, but unfortunately while Nick and Nora playful snipe at one another’s exaggerated vices (which they actually frequently share), the dialogue in the old Tales To Astonish stories was frequently thinly (or not at all) veiled hostility. For consistancy, Stan carried that over into the Avengers, where it would sometimes be mitigated, such as Jan explaining that her flirting with the other male members of the group were deliberate attempts to make Hank jealous.
There were numerous hints that Hank suffered from mental illness, or at the very least a dysfunctional socialization disorder. He would break equipment in fits of rage. Jan would apologize to their fan club for Hank’s rudeness. Hank would make changes to Jan’s power set or equipment, even surgically altering her without first consulting her. When Hank had his first very serious mental break and became Yellowjacket, claiming to have killed Hank, Jan shocked the Avengers by agreeing to marry him, later admitting that she knew that he was really Hank and that she played along because he kept putting off marriage when he was stable. Two years later, in a prelude to the Kree/Skrull War, Hank and Jan investigated a Kree attack on a scientific research outpost using some kind of de-evolution ray. It turned Hank into a Neanderthal and he nearly killed Jan when she tried to help him. Other Avengers intervened and both were hospitalized. Hank recovered first and returned as Ant-Man in a fantastic Neal Adams sequence inside the Vision’s synthetic body [Avengers #93(11/71)]. Shortly after that he appeared in a short back-up story in Iron Man #44(01/72) and six months after that begins a residence in the new try-out book Marvel Feature [ in #4(07/72) to #10(07/73)], during which Jan is mutated into a wasp-monster and tries to kill Hank. There’s a theme here. This also answers the question about Ant-Man having a series after Tales to Astonish. Those seven issues and the Iron Man back-up are about it. There was also a virtual mini-series in the 90’s published as a flip book in Avengers #379(10/94)-#382(01/95).
The couple retire and Jan is recuperating when Egghead tries to murder his niece Trish Starr with a car bomb for aiding the Pyms in Marvel Feature. She loses an arm and Hank becomes Yellowjacket again to bring Egghead in. She was dating Kyle Richmond (Nighthawk) who was injured less seriously in the blast, but explains why the story appeared in Giant-Size Defenders #4 and not an issue of the Avengers. Speaking of whom, after the Celestial Madonna story arc, the Avengers call for a new roster and the Pyms join only to have Jan hit by a concussive bomb blast and Jan is hospitalized for the third time in five years. For unrelated reasons, Hank soon joins her. They return about a year later for the next roster change. That coincided with Gerry Conway taking over both scripting and editing (#150-157); the last issue (drawn by Don Heck) was the last in which Hank was drawn with a side holster for the disruptor gun. In #158(04/77), Archie Goodwin took over the editing and Jim Shooter took over the scripts. They had worked together on Super-Villain Team-Up, which crossed over with the Avengers while Conway wrote it. After that cross-over, Goodwin put Bill Mantlo and Bob Hall on both that title and Champions (both of those titles would soon end crossing over with each other). This enabled him to remove a certain artist from Champions– namely John Byrne, who could then work on Marvel Team-Up and Avengers for Goodwin. At the beginning of Avengers #160, Hank tells Jan that he is headed for the lab to improve his powers. That leads directly into this issue of Marvel Team-Up. After this two-parter, Hank completely loses it (with a push from Ultron) and reverts to Ant-Man c.1963 in #161-162 but somehow seems normal and in Yellowjacket gear again in #164. That’s also the first issue since the MTU story in which he uses the in-suit disruptor (but announces himself as “Jellowjacket” for some reason) and the start of three issues drawn by Byrne.