On this episode of Peace Bound and Down: A Wonder Woman Podcast, Sean is joined by the fighting’ Max Traver to discuss issue 10 of volume two of Wonder Woman. Are you ready for the scumbagery of Zeus? Are you ready for the secret of Paradise Island? Are you ready for the Challenge of the Gods?
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- Weird Warriors Podcast
Bringing a little peace to man’s world each month.
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I just love the way Rucka and James Raiz did the hundred handed ones in the 2004-2006 run – SO MANY HANDS!
Loved the secret question of “what do you wish a hero had been talked out of” – my answer, naturally, is I wish someone had talked Bruce out of firing Stephanie Brown as Robin in 2005. So many good stories lost with that dynamic – grim detective and sassy squire – just because Steph did the same thing Tim, Jason, and Dick did before her. Curse the stubbornness of DC editorial!
Excellent podcast handling the darkness of the Greek gods. Such scoundrels they were! I also have great anger at Athena for her behavior towards Arachne!
Ian,
I totally agree! Justice for Stephanie! I love her as Spoiler and her Batgirl run is a favorite of mine.
Hello, I’m just a few minutes into the podcast, but I thought if I didn’t mention this now I’d forget later – I did enjoy your story, Sean, but the word you’re looking for isn’t ‘transmogrification’, it’s ‘transubstantiation’. i’ve never heard anyone refer to the Eucharist as ‘Jesus’, but a spot of salt and vinegar flavour might not be a bad thing.
Max, excellent Lasso of Truth tale too, please bring back Mulchway to Hell.
Martin,
Thank you for catching that! I am doubly embarrassed by this mistake :
1. I knew it was “transubstantiation” and taught it that way when I was in the classroom (though it’s been many years)
2.The word changed to “transmogrification’ in my brain because that’s the term used in Dungeons and Dragons.
I am such a nerd!
Weirdly, even though the wine becomes Our Lord, it still brings on my total alcohol allergy.
Protestant clergy here, but I caught that as well. It all goes back to the Greeks interestingly enough, specifically Aristotle’s concept of substance and accidents. The idea, as I understand it, is that the substance of the wine is transformed into the blood of Christ, but the accidents of the blood (more or less, the physical characteristics of it) remain the same.
I will reply more about the actual comic later, but I get so few opportunities to utilize my theology degrees in this forum.
I never knew that, Super Captain, that’s rather brilliant! Bless you!
I love that the comments are becoming a history lesson on transubstantiation!
Here’s my secret question
Which alternate version of Wonder Woman would
You rather see a team up story about a wonder woman who works as female trucker who is known a C.B super hero who works for a all woman trucking company in 70’s where Wonder Woman is her C.B handle and super hero name
Or a world where Wonder Woman is a Japanese super hero drawing her power from the Japanese mythology. And being a teenager kind of a magical girl type deal ?
Bucky,
Both options are great, but I will choose a trucker option every time! I even have a full run of U.S. 1!
Honestly when you named your show I had the jerry Reed song stuck in my head east bound and down . Maybe one day Fire and Water will let expand your wings and you can take the road with U.S 1 tales from road podcast I can only think of person who has covered those comics on top the 4th wall .maybe is you did a U.S 1 podcast you could give your guest hosts C.B handles examples like If had shag he could Hardcase , or Chris Franklin could be the mighty steel and you could introduce them using CB lingo just a idea for the future for . You
Great discussion and solid first issue to this new arc. For me, it reminded me of ‘The Twelve Labors of Wonder Woman’ arc in the 70s after the powerless pantsuit WW stories ended. The JLA makes her prove she is ready to come back to super-heroics by dealing with a dilemma each current JLAer throws at her. Seems idiotic … much like this series of events put before her.
As for secret questions –
Things you realized were dark: I have two issues. Obviously ‘The Ode to Billy Joe’ is clearly dark, a song about suicide. But only when older did I piece together that he kills himself over guilt, for he and the girl in the song throwing their baby off the bridge. Chilling.
But a better story. Years ago, I was home with my youngest daughter who was probably about 10. We were looking for something to watch and a movie called ‘A Monster Calls’ was coming on. The one line synopsis says ‘a young boy meets a monster and they have adventures’. Sounded like it was right up our alley. Instead it is a movie about gray morality, about a boy dealing with his mother dying from cancer and how he is struggling with his feelings, and GUILT. When it was over, the two of us were crying. I won’t give details because it is definitely worth watching.
Speaking truth to power: Henry Fonda in 12 Angry Men for sure. Marlon Brando in On The Waterfront.
What should a character have been talked out of: Obviously Donna marrying Terry Long. I was right there Donna!!!!
But maybe Dr. Manhattan killing Rorschach at the end of Watchmen. I wonder what would have happened had Rorschach made it back. (Of course the journal being on the last page hints at that sort of happening.
As for transubstantiation, there is that chilling scene where V feeds the cyanide host to the unscrupulous Bishop after the blessing. It remains cyanide.
Great show as always!
Anj, I had never heard the baby theory for “Ode to Billie Joe”. That is DARK, and disturbing for sure. I looked it up, and sure enough, that’s one theory, the others being flowers (what I always assumed, basically a “she loves me, she loves me not” situation), and a wedding ring, which apparently is the one meaning songwriter/singer Bobbie Gentry gave more creedence to than any other, though she never confirmed it. She said what was thrown of the bridge wasn’t as important as the family’s apathy toward Billie Joe’s suicide while eating dinner. I kind of hope it was just a wedding ring!
As for something that is far darker than I realized as a kid, well, Casper had to be a kid that died, right? I never even thought of that as a child. It honestly wasn’t until Bart Simpson mentioned he was the ghost of Richie Rich that I thought of Casper once being a living, breathing kid. Then the movie went there!
What should a character have been talked out of? Spider-Man giving up his identity, and THEN his marriage. J. Michael Stracynski being talked out of all of that and “Sins of Past” or whatever that awful Norman Osborn/Gwen Stacy storyline was. Clark Kent and his mullet (runs from Michael Bailey).
Great episode, Sean and Max! Zeus is indeed beyond disgusting, but as you pointed out, very on model. Looking forward to following the story arc with you Sean. Even with Millennium invovled!
Chris – Talking Spidey out of revealing his secret ID during Civil War is a great choice! It would have spared us the horror of “One More Day”.
Actually, Anj, it was Wonder Woman herself who asked the Justice League to monitor her adventures for awhile after she discovered she had gaps in her memory – as always, that was Queen Hippolyta, deciding what was ‘best’ for her beloved daughter. The members themselves would’ve had her back in a second.
Oh, is that what that arc was called! One of those issues was the rare Wonder Woman issue I had in those years. It featured Elongated Man tailing Diana thru an adventure into another dimension, and not helping at all, which didn’t seem very heroic. And Ralph even went the extra mile bringing a video recorder along to record every detail to share with the League, because that’s not creepy! I tease, but I need to see if that whole arc is available on DCUI, just for my completionist brain.
It only got the Twelve Labors title when it was collected. There are some stupid prices on eBay for that trade, but also decent ones. And it’s on DC Infinite.
Anj,
It’s funny – I almost went with 12 Angry Men as well. Such an amazing film.
Talking Donna out of marrying the human wet blanket Terry Long is a great choice! Terry and Donna never made sense and his presence blocked off stories for her for years.
Another wonder-full episode! I’m re-reading my TPB of these stories as you go along and, when Zeus declares that he wants to give Diana “the gift of his love”, my first thought was it’s just Zeus being Zeus. He sounds as creepy as Rod Stewart in that song from the 80s: “Hey baby, I want to give you my love touch.” Ewww! It is fun for the series to go back to the island and the Olympians after a few issues in “man’s world”. That back and forth is a ig part of what makes these comics great.
Regarding the secret questions, a lot of classic country songs were darker than you might realize at first listen. See Ode to Billie Joe mentioned above. My parents were country fans and so I listened to a good bit of the Statler Brothers growing up. One of their songs is “Class of ’57” which appears to be simply a nostalgic little tune hearkening back to the “old days” and how you move on to adulthood after high school graduation. The verses get pretty dark:
“Betty runs a trailer park
Jan sells Tupperware
Randy’s on an insane ward
And Mary’s on welfare
Charlie took a job with Ford
And Joe took Freddie’s wife
Charlotte took a millionaire
And Freddie took his life.”
Then, there is one that I found out just this week. The Stone Temple Pilots song “Plush” is apparently inspired by a real-life instance of a girl from San Diego who was kidnapped and murdered.
As for decisions that characters needed to be talked out of, someone needed to tell Clark and Lois that, under no circumstances is Jor-El allowed to take their young son Jon on a trip into space where he will get trapped on Earth 3, imprisoned by Ultra-Man, and then come back having aged several years. And while we are at it, Clark, did you really need to walk across America for a year? That was the last Superman story before Flashpoint reset everything for the New 52.
Super Captain,
It’s funny that you mention Jon Kent. I like the stories with him as a late teen, but I HATE the way Bendis aged him up. That’s way too dark for a Superman character.
Not to overly dwell on this, but Diana being overwhelmed by the hundred hands is a recurring image in this series. There was Deimos’ snake beard engulfing her, and the Nereids placing healing hands on naked Diana under water. Now, am I kink-shaming Perez? Heck no. If this was his thing, that was his business. But it is now frequent enough for me to notice, and considering how clueless I typically am, that’s saying something.
This issue is a very enjoyable for setting the stage of this storyline. So many pieces introduced, and just whetting our appetite. It does feel weird that Diana’s non-Amazon friends don’t even get cut scenes, because as readers, we all know they’ll be back since the comic is not going to be hundreds of issues on Themyscira. A quick “meanwhile” page might have been nice to keep them “present”. But honestly, there’s no room in this issue. So I know it’s just me that wants to see what real estate shenanigans Julia is up to with her embezzled funds from Diana’s press tour.
Dark surprises: Showing how little I listen and absorb lyrics to songs, it was years before I realized what Phil Collins’ “In The Air Tonight” was about. Yikes!
I have to second Spider-Man nullifying his marriage. It was a bad decision and still stands as such. And MY version of Mephisto wouldn’t have gotten away with it!
Max is also a Roger Stern Avengers fan? Duly noted!
Thanks for this great show, Sean.
Thanks, Tim! There is definitely a trend in the series of Diana being physically overwhelmed and then overcoming the challenge. I wonder if it’s an homage to HG Peter, who had Diana chained in almost every issue so that he could show her breaking the chains of societal bondage.
Terrific show, chaps. Given George didn’t stint on showing how awful Zeus was in this story, never mind the Greek gods in general, I don’t see how the Amazons could continue to accept their patronage. If they distanced themselves, would they be instantly wished away, I wonder?
As ever, this was an impressive issue and it led to great discussion from Sean and Max.
A sing I didn’t realise was dark until I was older would be Honey by Bobby Goldsboro. I don’t want to talk about it (sob).
And Delilah by Tom Jones is just the best if you don’t actually listen to the lyrics, blimey.
Bad comic decisions? I’d talk Jan out of marrying her dreamboat Hank while he was having a split personality crisis; even the Joe Casey Avengers mini series years later designed to make sense of that couldn’t sort out that mess.
Martin – Talking Jan out of marrying Hank in his mentally unstable state is a great choice. I love Jan, but that was an unhealthy choice for her and Hank.
Another great episode. I’m glad there was a comment on the cover… as I said before… that gatefold has my vote for the single best Wonder Woman cover ever. Pointing out not just the artistic layout, but also the sub-text and foreshadowing that it delivers makes it even greater! I also really appreciated the nod to the New Teen Titans issue featuring the “Clash of the Titans”. I’m currently doing a chronological re-read of my DC Comics collection and I JUST landed on September 1981. So perfect timing. It was neat to compare George Perez’s take on the Greek gods between 1981 and 1987.
A reread of DC sounds like fun! I need to do a side by side if Perez’ work on Titans and Wonder Woman. I remember his early Titans work being a bit softer, which I loved, but that might be the pairing with inker Romeo Tanghal, who is my favorite inker for him.
Great episode, as usual. Didn’t take long for what was hinted at in #7 with Zeus and Pan to rear its very ugly head, did it? I find myself not really remembering where this storyline goes with mythology and I’m excited to read it all again.
I wish there had been someone to talk Maxwell Lord and Amanda Waller about tipping from morally grey characters into outright villains. The DCU lost something with both and Blue Beetle wouldn’t have lost his life.
Roger Stern is where I came in with Avengers, so I have much love for his run.
Talking Max Lord out of his heel turn and saving Ted Kord is a great choice! Poor Ted…
Great episode, as always. Max was a terrific guest.
As you guys were discussing the way the Olympian gods frequently punished the innocent victims of Zeus’ lust and the others’ jealousy, I started thinking about our own culture of victim blaming and victim shaming. In my life, the most glaring example–which in retrospect feels as cruel as it was misguided–is how the press and the general public treated Monica Lewinsky during her scandal with Bill Clinton. The press dubbed her a whore and a home wrecker. The late night shows mocked her appearance endlessly. She was a punchline for years. And Sweet Christmas, that is so, soooo wrong. All the scorn and pettiness directed at Monica should have been aimed at the man who put her in that position. The older man. The married man. Her boss. The leader of the free f***ing world. The guy with all the power. The guy who did wrong. But she suffered for it. It’s sickening.
It’s a small relief that Monica became an inspiring, beautiful, funny, courageous advocate and activist. We need more like her and less like Jay Leno and the folks who demonized her for ratings.
Great show, Sean and Max! I can’t believe Zeus stole my codpiece Halloween costume idea!
This is the start to a fun storyline for Wonder Woman. Perez gets to really flex his creative muscles. But I think Patterson’s ink line is a touch too thin for Perez. I feel like we lost some of the gravitas without a bolder line. Almost like he was intimidated by George’s pencils and didn’t want to mess it up.
What did o not realize was dark at the time? Pretty much all of Pearl Jam’s early stuff. I was in college when they were just getting big and we used to play Ten on a loop. Alive has an especially grim story behind it of parental trauma and incest.
What should a character been talked out of? About every hero who wears buccaneer boots? You can’t jump around in those things. There’s not enough Epsom salts in the world to soothe your dogs after fighting the masters of evil wearing a pair of floppy pirate boots.
Finally, I’m pretty sure the myth behind her first trial was that each dark arm reaching up symbolized every time that Julia dipped her hand into the petty cash during the wonder woman tour.