Season 7, Episode 3: Lil
Special Guest Star: Vanya O
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Lovely episode. It’s wonderful to hear that M*A*S*H is still be viewed and celebrated by younger people across the globe and cool of Mike Farrell to say what he has. Lil is such a fun episode and I think you both made good points about Hawkeye’s insecurity and about it being rare to see older women.
I actually spent some months in Russia in the late 90s. I don’t remember much American TV being shown but I do remember American films being on the television, kind of strange to think I could have been watching M*A*S*H and not being aware.
All the best to Vanya.
Great show, Rob. I mean, sure, like everyone else, I was looking forward to this episode for the Col..Potter erotica, but I was blown away by your guest! Vanya was terrific. It was so cool to hear her story and to learn 20-somethings in Russia are really into MASH. Keep pirating those episodes, Vanya!
Rob, I’m seven minutes into the episode and waiting on a grocery order. I wanted to tell you now before I forget: You are a terrific interviewer. You’re curious about people and their stories, and it makes you ask good questions. Please don’t second guess yourself when you’re asking about the Seychelles or Russia or anything that comes to mind but isn’t strictly on topic for the podcast. It’s a big part of what we’re here for. If you want to know, we do, too.
The story about Harry Truman’s middle initial is that when he was born, his parents couldn’t decide which of his grandfathers, Shipp or Solomon, they should name him after, so they simply gave him an “S” as his middle name on his birth certificate until they could agree…which they never did. And by the way, Harry’s middle name is an S without a period after it; it always irked him when newspapers, and later historians, mistakenly gave him punctuation where none was due.
Vanya was an amazing guest! I hope she comes back to the podcast.
The Lil character wasn’t the first older, sexually active woman that M*A*S*H represented. The character played by Mary Wickes who aggressively went after Frank is quite the contrast to Lil who was played much more romantic and gentle. Where Mary Wickes’ Colonel Reese was played for laughs (though rape in any context is nothing to laugh about), Lil and Colonel Potter had such warm chemistry. You could really see them entering something wonderful if Potter wasn’t married. They were so respectful to each other, I enjoyed watching the scene despite it being an uncomfortable situation.
Jumping in with another comment before I’m finished listening: I think that if someone showed up to inprocessing with a birth certificate that showed first name “B,” middle name “J,” the personnel clerk would make a comment or ask a question (“Is this for real?”) and then move on to the next guy. I’ve heard that Ulysses Simpson Grant was named Hiram Ulysses Grant at birth, and West Point messed it up at inprocessing. He went with it.
Regarding the Hawaiian shirt, everybody has R&R clothes. Colonel Potter wouldn’t hang out with them in camp — presents the wrong image — but he’d have them.
More points:
– Radar was just lying about the jeeps. There was no need to deflate tires. He doesn’t expect Colonel Potter to doubt him or check his story.
– Hawkeye’s abandonment issues started when his mother died while he was still a child. I doubt he had an opportunity to say good to her.
– I try to be a rule follower when it comes to intellectual property. That said, pirating an anti-war American sitcom to get around international sanctions and authoritarian censors is the most gloriously subversive thing I can think of right now, and I love it. Hulu should pipe M*A*S*H into Russia for free (there, I put in all the asterisks).
– Vanya and this episode were inspiring as well as entertaining. I know people our age complain about the young people, Rob, but I’m pretty impressed with them. Both of you, keep up the great work!
Spacibo bolshoi! Dosvidanya!
Say goodbye to her, I mean.
One of my favorite things about this podcast is hearing how people from all over the world became MAS-fans, and Vanyas story was so interesting. Love that there is a group of young, nerdy MASH-fans in Russia, greetings from a nerdy MASH-fan on the other side of the Baltic Sea ! 🙂
Lil is one of the episodes I have come to like more the more times I watch it. Carmen Mathews is one of my favorite guest stars, she brings so much warmth and has such a nice presence on screen. She doesn’t have any huge, dramatic scenes, but she really makes us care about Lil right away. She and Harry Morgan are wonderful together, they have an instant connection, and you can tell that they really enjoy working together.
I think the whole B-plot with Hawkeye and BJ is an interesting one too, lighthearted at first glance, but you can really see Hawkeye’s trust issues here, he can’t stand not knowing things about his friend, and seeing how much it truly bothers him tells us so much about his personality. There is obviously a lot of abandonment issues in there too, and I like that they expose that a little in this episode, in a storyline that seems to be only fun at a first glance.
I really like Margaret’s reaction to Lil too, with Margaret first being so nervous, so anxious to be good enough. And speaking of issues, this obviously has to do with her father issues, of having spent her life feeling like a failure to him, so getting other people’s appreciation and affirmation becomes so incredibly important to her. Here, it’s being the best head nurse ever in front of Lil, and in other cases it’s all about her getting the undivided attention from an older man in uniform, in any way she can. Quite sad, and we also see how she and Hawkeye have a lot in common personality vise, they are both so intense and prone to make something their entire world.
I also think it’s an interesting aspect of Margaret how she gets so cheered up by Lil’s words. She is so strong and in control in many ways, on the surface anyway, so I like that we see how impressionable she is, she truly listens and takes Lil’s words to heart. She is still on her way to truly discover who she is just as Margaret, and this is a very interesting step in her path.
I will say, though, that I would have liked this episode even more if Lil hadn’t put the moves on Colonel Potter. It’s a really good scene, actually it’s one of my favorite moments of Harry Morgans acting, I love how he tenses up and how his body language and voice changes when he realizes what’s going on. And like you talk about, it’s nice that Lil’s sexuality isn’t treated as a joke, but to me – the episode would have worked better if she had just friendly intentions with Potter. The result would have been the same, Radar would have worried for nothing – it would have been all in his head, and we would have seen Colonel Potter being a great guy, like we know he is.
For me, it does take something away from the talk she has with Margaret. Yes, Lil is happy with her choices in life, but will also put the moves on a married man. And with Margaret’s history, I can’t help getting the feeling that this is a peek into the future… If Margaret stays in the army and doesn’t find the stability and dedication from someone that she obviously craves, in 30 years time – will she be making the same mistakes? I would personally have loved for Lil to be a person confident in herself, great at her job, smart and sensitive but not looking for love. Not every guest character has to fall for anyone romantically, a warm friendship would have been enough here.
Still, “Lil” is a really great, sort of low-key episode, and I loved hearing your discussion!
Great episode, loved hearing Vanya’s story about pizza box signs and the lovely response from Mike Farrell at the end! A little pirating never hurt nobody that’s what I say. I was surprised to hear everyone agreed that BJ was telling the truth about his parents’ names, I always thought it was just another load of horse hockey from MASH’s leading horse hockey supplier (said with affection of course). I guess it works as a so-dumb-it-has-to-be-true solution, but if Hawkeye wasn’t buying it then neither am I!!
Great, heartwarming episode Rob. So encouraging to hear about Vanya and her group of MASH fans. And getting the A-OK from Mike Farrell was just icing on the cake. Wonderful, wonderful stuff.
It’s mentioned on this episode’s IMDB page, but I already knew the story of J.R. Cash who’s given name was just initials. When he joined the Air Force he had to pick at least a first name, and therefore became John R. Cash, aka Johnny Cash. And he wrote “Folsom Prison Blues” while serving in the Air Force in Germany, before coming home to become the Man in Black.
As for an awkard moment like Potter and your co-worker situation, I too was in the middle of something like that. But I was entirely obvlivious about it. My first semester of college I befriended a fellow student who told me all about her boyfriend, who’s interests were exactly like mine. Of course I talked about Cindy, but apparently this fell on deaf ears. Next semester, when Cindy joined me at the school, we bumped into my friend on campus and I introduced her to Cindy. My “friend” exploded and said “I BET YOU’RE GLAD SHE’S HERE!!!”, and stormed off with tears in her eyes. In that moment I finally realized she was projecting this imaginary boyfriend onto me. I didn’t get the chance to let her down with dignity, unfortunately!
Thankfully, a few semesters later, we mended fences and were at least able to be friendly again.
Very good commentary from your guest.
How can you go wrong with a Harry Morgan centered episode. I have watched several BBC sitcoms and most do star elderly actors. That would never happen in the US so it was very refreshing to see the occasional MASH episode where this happens.
I was not impressed with Ms. Mathews. I see in her IMDB page that she has a lot of experience in anthology programs(Kraft Theatre, Goodyear Playhouse, etc) so that indicates that she has tremendous versatility and range. However for some reason it seemed to me that she was kind of “sleepwalking” through this episode.
Great episode and lovely and informative guest host.
So that’s 3 for 3 in good guest hosts this year so far lol
This episode isn’t one of my faves however as I find it uncomfortable that Radar goes overboard in his actions towards Potter. I mean, in the end, Potter was exactly how you expected him to be. A gentlemen to the end.
Loving this series Rob. Keep it up
Absolutely terrific episode and guest! Thank you Vanya for sharing your story, and thank you Rob for sharing it with Mike Farrell and passing along his response. Very cool to hear all around.
Lil is not only one of my favorite S7 episodes but one of my favorite comfort episodes of MASH period. So many things to love about the conversation but one that I especially enjoyed was the parallel between Hawkeye and Margaret both being extremely competent at what they do and yet both falling apart in their own B plots when their insecurities flare up. I had never made that connection between the two of them here but it makes perfect sense for their characters – with Margaret in how she relates to authority figures due to her father; and with Hawkeye’s fear of being abandoned that likely started when his mother passed. Something that seems insignificant to the people around them has a lot of buried meaning for them! Always love a good character-driven episode, and this one is a favorite for all the reasons mentioned in your discussion and THEN some! Keep up the great work, looking forward to the rest of the season.
Hello Rob. Another great episode. Your question about initials for names made me think of General Norman Schwarzkopf‘s biography. Norman is his middle name. His family had a tradition of using an initial for the first name and then just calling the boy by his middle name.
When a young H Norman Schwarzkopf went to West Point, the administration was taken aback by him just having an initial for a first name. He then pointed out that his birth name was Herbert, but his birth certificate was changed after he was born so that the Herbert was now just H. Didn’t seem to have much of an impact on his career.
Coming in for a second comment. I really enjoyed that your guest Vanya is from Russia. It made my brain jump a few thoughts. Enid Kent played Nurse Bigelow on MASH. She later played Maureen Foster, the mother of Simone, on Head of the Class. That TV show was granted special permission in 1988 to travel to the Soviet Union. Head of the Class became the first American sitcom to be filmed in the Soviet Union.
THe other voice IS another radar! Mash is a space between univeses. We know radar has a 1969 Avengers comic in 1952 we know hawkeye sings the Mickey mouse club theme three years early and THIS is a little shakey but I THINK BJ mentions TV being on after Midnight IN mill Vally (he mentions a “late show” being on during arron’s late night feedIGS THAT may 11;30
ps I REALLY kinda want COL flag to BE Doctor Who but that’s a reach
My grandfather had a brother (born early 1900s) named DJ. I never met the man as he lived on the other side of the country and I only heard a couple mentions of him from my mother so I have no idea how he got the name.
I don’t know what his intentions were but Potter went to her tent twice after hours, once with a bottle of booze. Then he went on a picnic with her. That is really crossing a line and I can see how she got the wrong idea.
I haven’t finished the ep yet but I’m jumping in with a comment — I think there is ONE other time they explicitly acknowledge the PA voice: isn’t it in “sometimes you hear the bullet” that they’re about to drink, and the PA comes on, and Tommy goes “what was that” and Hawkeye sighs, “him, he hates it when we drink.”
My other favorite PA gag is during Ceasefire when he’s reminding everyone thag the ceasefire isn’t official while flirting with an unheard lady 😀
My dad used to work with a guy named L.G. Th.e initials didn’t stand for anything.
When he was in the army all of his paperwork said. L (only) G (only). So everyone called him Lonely Gonely.
Great episode. Loved hearing from the point of view of the younger generation enjoying M*A*S*H* and then to add to it, from a Russian point of view. It is so enlightening to hear the point of view directly form someone, whether it is a show that has been of the air for 40+ years, or what life is like in a different part of the world, instead of from a bias news agency.
A couple of points from the discussion:
Unless his name really was Bj, he would not be able to have his military paperwork just be initials. It would have to have his full name. A classmate of mine was called Bj, but his real name was Bobbie Joe. So he would have had to have Bobbie Joe on his military paperwork.
When I enlisted in the Navy, I was told as I was going through the paperwork, I could legally change my name through the paperwork, and not have to pay the court costs and lawyers, and the long drawn out protest. Not sure if this is the case anymore, but it was in 1985.
As to Potter’s attitude toward Radar in the beginning, versus his reply on sleeping in his own bed toward the end of the episode. My take is Potter was enjoying the company and not thinking of anything romantic with Lil, When she started to make some ‘moves’ on Potter, I think that is when his eyes opened to how others were seeing the relationship.
I’m glad you brought up the point about Hawkeye’s deep insecurity about his friendships. It’s one of the many things that makes him such an interesting character—that he can be so gregarious and well-liked and still so consumed with doubt when it comes to the deeper relationships in his life. I do wonder if he was like that before Korea as well, or if he’s become less trustful over time (we rarely hear about his pre-war relationships, in contrast to BJ, who apparently has at 27 friends and relations on hand at any given time).
I love Lil as a guest star and think that she’s marvelously utilized. Anything that can bring out Potter’s softer side is a win for me. I do think that Potter knew that their was a romantic bent to their relationship even before she made a move on him, but he was having too much fun flirting that the reality of it didn’t really sink in. It’s not really addressed in the episode, but there’s a subtle nod to the sexism of the era in the fact that Potter can have a career and a spouse, but Lil presumably had to choose between the two. I hope she found a more receptive colonel at the next MASH unit :p
Wonderful job, Vanya. I hope you come back on the show!