We said we'd do it and we are! All ZERO ISSUES following Zero Hour will be covered. What's changed? What's new? What stays? And we start with sacred cow Batman and his four Zero issues - Batman, Shadow of the Bat, Legends of the Dark Knight, and Detective Comics - to see where the Bat is going next as this is - tag line please - The Beginning of Tomorrow!
Listen to the Zero Hour Strikes! Episode 20 below!
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Relevant images and further credits at: Zero Hour Strikes ep.20 Supplemental
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I am in the camp that Joe Chill as the killer of the Wayne’s and Bruce eventually confronting him is the way to go. I hate the killer never getting caught. Hate it. Batman confronting his parents’ killer is important for the character because it shifts his mission from being about revenge to being about making sure it doesn’t happen to another kid like him. This was such a bone headed idea.
Actually, I hate both of the big things they changed about Batman after Zero Hour. Batman going from a super-hero to urban legend was such a weird decision to make, especially when it comes to Tim Drake’s origin. Tim watched footage of Batman and Robin capturing a criminal on the news, which led him to believe that Robin was Dick Grayson. How does Tim figure it out if they’re urban legends. Also, who the hell is the Bat Signal for?
In short, while Batman’s stories were strong after Zero Hour, the creative decisions were flawed.
I don’t know when they decided to go with the urban legend thing, but it’s definitely not in the zero issues.
The Urban Legend thing sneaks in bit by bit over the next few years. Like Mike, I hate it. Makes no sense in the DCU. Denny’s fiefdom rules were a bit too strict.
Still listening, but I have to weigh in and say “no” to the whole “no Joe Chill” thing. Mike pretty much said what I wanted to above, but a Batman who doesn’t catch his parents killer can project him on every killer, and lead to a more unbalanced Batman…which is what we eventually get as the years move on from this.
In Earth-Two and Earth-One continuity, Batman caught up to Chill, who was running a criminal smuggling operation. He confronts Chill, reveals his identity, and that Chill “created” Batman. Chill runs out to his gang and tells them Batman is after him, and that Chill had “created” him. The gang gun Chill down for creating their worst enemy. It’s such a great example of poetic justice, to ignore it is a real shame. Plus it was penned and partially illustrated by Batman’s co-creators, Bill Finger and Bob Kane. It should be CANON!
Of course, Post-Crisis gave us Joe Chill the assassin, who Batman was “forced” to work with to bring down the Reaper in Batman: Year Two. Bruce never got the chance to kill Chill with the very gun Chill used to murder his parents. Bruce had the gun to Chill’s forehead, when the Reaper beat him to it and killed him. So Batman: Year Two is now OUT of continuity, only about 7 years later.
Chris
Detective was definitely the strongest of these, but Dixon OWNED the Bat-titles in the 90s, so it’s no surprise. I loved learning how Bruce was able to use Wayne resources to build his arsenal. And this certainly forms the backbone of Batman Begins, for sure.
Shadow lost something when Breyfogle left DC for Malibu and the Ultraverse. The title was created for him and Alan Grant, after their successful runs on Detective and Batman. I like Bret Blevins’ work, but the unique, psychological approach Grant took on Batman had kind of ran it’s course for me.
Mike Manely didn’t stay on Batman too long, which is a shame. I liked his approach. Moench’s take on Batman was different than his long pre-Crisis run, but I have to admit I liked his writing the least of the regulars. A bit…flowery for me at times. His stuff clicked well with Kelly Jones when he came on. Liked his Batman, but really didn’t care for his old-man Robin and chimpmunk-cheeked Alfred.
Vince Garrano was THAT artist I just couldn’t stand at DC in the 90s, so his drawing the framing sequence in LOTDK was a minus for me. I don’t think the David Williams story arc EVER appeared, which is a shame. I like his work. Looks like he drew an arc in the digital-first revival of LOTDK a few years back.
Chris
I didn’t read ZERO HOUR but I remember when all these 0 issues dropped that month, I ended up collecting whole lot of them. I was tiring of Marvel and looking to see if the DC characters would pull me in and all the zero issues seemed like good jumping on points. Plus I liked the shiny silver 0 across all the books. Alas, these books in general did not make me a DC reader.
I had been reading the Bat-books for years until the culmination of “Knightfall” with BATMAN #500. Then I dropped them. I picked up Batman and Detective #0, and then maybe one issue after, but by then I was out of my Batman phase and would only pick up the odd graphic novel or trade paperback collection for the next 15 years or so.
Still listening to the episode, but dipping in on the first part…
While it was clear that Jim Aparo’s time as Batman’s primary artist needed to end, we still got years of his work being obliterated by overwhelming inkers like Bill Sienkiewicz and Jimmy Palmiotti totally inking like Bill Sienkiewicz. Under those terms, he could have continued on the title, but I also feel like Brett Blevins would have been a better transition stylistically. I was never wild about Mike Manley, the poor and rather boring man’s Lee Weeks. I specifically remember reading Batman #0 and decided that I never wanted to read a Dark Knight origin story ever again. I wondered who did, especially after whole series were devoted to just early days stories?
I think Doug Moench is one of the better Bronze Age writers, and one of the stronger Batman scripters, but Mark Gruenwald was also among my favorite Captain America writers. They both sat on characters for years until they had to be ordered to leave, and how many runs did Moench get on Batman besides? While I can see the appeal in Kelly Jones taking over a Batman book, his supernatural exaggerations were too unhinged for my preferred take on the Caped Crusader. Because of the backdoor pilot for Chase, I read #550, and thanks to stripped cover returns at my shop I read at least an issue or two of the much-maligned brief Larry Hama/Scott McDaniel run (Orka!) I can’t say that I ever read-read “Hush,” but being a Jeph Loeb script, I very well might have and just forgot most of it. The Jim Lee art was more memorable, but I really don’t find him to be a DC artist, despite the majority of his professional career having been spent there. Beyond that, I would guess that I read fewer than five comics in the remainder of the 713 issue Pre-Flushpoint run.
I began to love Brett Blevins’ art on Batman: Shadow of the Bat because his history on youth titles made him pretty great on Nightwing and Tim Drake, plus now that he could draw grown women, ai-yi-yi. His Catwoman is way up there for me. He went from someone I actively avoided to buying the occasional book specifically for his work. So of course he left the book without even finishing the “Prodigal” arc. I bought the Black Canary origin issue by new artist Barry Kitson, a preview of his take in JLA: Year One. I can’t say that I recall buying or reading another issue of this series. It surely wasn’t helped that aside from being visually pleasing, the #0 issue seemed entirely pointless and redundant. What’s worse for a veteran reader stuck with a Batman origin story than a second version in short order?
“Urban legend” is fine for Year One period Batman stories. It doesn’t work in a shared universe where he’s registered to travel internationally between Justice League International embassies. You can suspend disbelief but not active canon.
I had the black & white paperback novel version of Untold Legend of the Batman, which was formative, and it featured Joe Chill. That said, it doesn’t bunch my panties either way.
I agree with Michael Bailey, on why catching Joe Chill is important. It cheapens Batman if his mission is solely revenge — every possible criminal is his parents’ killer, rather than him extending his protection to make sure other kids don’t go through what he had to.
As for Green Arrow, I don’t think he’s dumb. But he’s not Batman-level smart. He can see thinks clearly in some areas, and make totally bone-headed moves in others. I expect some of Ollie’s Arrow-gizmos means above average intelligence but not Batman or Peter Parker or Barry Allen level intelligence. (Re Barry Allen. The guy built a time machine / dimension travelling machine out of parts you’d find at the gym.)
I really enjoyed how Siskoid hung Bass out to dry on Green Arrow’s “smartness.” According to this website of RPG stats called Mayfair DC Heroes Character Database, under the external link to “Siskoid’s Collection,” Oliver Queen has an Intellect of 7. That’s exactly the same as noted inventor and industrialist Ted Kord, who’s a pretty bright guy. Obviously, Ollie’s intellect is centered mostly on his detective skill (a 6 to BB’s 7,) but perhaps he gets credit for maintaining (if not inventing) all those trick arrows. Then Bass took a needless but not unexpected swipe at Hawkman, who has an Int 9 & Det 7, because he’s a space alien who utilizes advanced technology in service to his own mystery solving. I think most reasonable people would acknowledge that Hawkman is superior to Green Arrow in every way, even being an obnoxious blowhard, and he keeps his better half happier as well.
I believe that I was newsstand dependent when Legends of the Dark Knight #1 came out. I want to say that I found a copy at one of the mall bookstores, but I found the multi-color outer cover gimmick to be corny, and nothing between its pages impressed. I caught odd issues that came my way, but the first time I bought one new on purpose was the one & done with the Kev O’Neill art (which was wild and grotesque enough that I could almost overlook the Alan Grant script.) Paul Gulacy is one of my favorite artists, and even though I’d only found a few issues of his “Prey” arc, I somewhat randomly committed to buying its sequel. The art on that one was by Golden Age great Russ Heath, and he was oddly suited to Moench’s sorority massacre riff “Heat.” That led right into #50, with a foil-embossed Brian Bolland cover and being hyped as some sort of pivotal confrontation with the Joker. It didn’t end up amounting to much. but there was a nice pin-up section to fill out its extended anniversary page count. After that, I just got drawn into the ill-considered KnightEnd issues.
The zero issue failed to reignite interest, though not being aware that it was cribbing from future inventory, I looked on it as a novel linking device for a bunch of pin-ups. Zeck was the highlight, and those Giarrano pages were rough. I want to say that I tried the Ted McKeever two-parter, and I definitely got rooked into the paycheck arc by Warren Ellis & John McCrea. God, I bought so many comics to read just one time back then. When I became a DC diehard later in the decade, I went back to read all of “Shaman,” “Gothic,” “Prey,” “Venom,” and “Faith,” ultimately only conforming my waning interest in Batman. They got me back for #100 on the strength of an extended Robin origin and Alex Ross cover. Read, bag, forget. I bought the five part Green Arrow team-up arc as a “DC Year One-ish” completeist, but highly doubt that I bothered to actually read it. I ate up “Terror” though, Moench’s third Catwoman/Hugo Strange arc, Gulacy’s second. Near as I can tell, that was a last hurrah, and probably those arcs are the only ones that I’ll ever reread.
After a month of variations on Batman origins, the Detective Comics weapons and paraphernalia issue seriously did not turn things around for me. If it were me calling the shots, I’d have done literally anything but this. Steal from the Superman office (again) and do a Kenny Braverman (oh, Hush) with new antagonists who have previously unrevealed ties to Batman. Do origin stories for key rogues or Family members without their own titles. Instead of retconning a pivotal clash between the Dick Grayson Robin and Two-Face, do it four more times to provide clout to aging/hoary baddies. Get the writers a CB radio so they’re not all driving in the exact same narrow lane. Thanks to my love of Grayson, I hung on for the “Prodigal” arc and even got the dump mostly black embossed covers that announced Bruce Wayne’s full return in “Troika.” But only the gimmick cover ones. I was officially past my Batman phase, and the opening chapters of that arc were the last length that I was offering. I got ‘Tec #708-710 for the Deathstroke rematch (when I still cared about Slade Wilson and reference material for DC Message Board Versus Threads.) I was just starting my Martian Manhunter fandom when #714-715 offered a John Jones (meh) team-up story. Because I was following Connor Hawke, I got the “Brotherhood of the Fist” tie-in #723. There were some stripped cover returns during the Rucka run that made little impression. I sprung for the trade collection of Paul Dini’s run. I guess that caps my reading of the title around 2007?
We all groan over Geoff Johns’ latest repurposing of Alan Moore, but he was rightly considered the modern Gerry Conway for a time. I do wonder though if his penchant for solo rogue stories that offer a new spin or insight was in some way influenced by Chuck Dixon. He was the macho (often historical) action guy on titles like The Punisher for years to me, but his work on Batman titles improved my opinion of his work. I think he gave some thoughtful interviews and did some clever work on some of the “Year One” annuals. He single-handedly made me a Riddler fan again on one of those. There was a time when I thought he had the best handle on the Dark Knight of anyone working at the time. Again, not unlike Johns on The Flash, until his trajectory with the character ran his soles bald and rendered Wally West nearly as radioactive as Hawkman.
The problem with Batman was that the same group of guys wrote the character for so long, that it solidified who he was to a generation of readers and writers. He’s the abusive father figure of a dysfunctional family made up of (sometimes disposable) orphan boys and the odd tomgirl who’ll get extra mistreated. He’s irreparably broken, incapable of having normal relationships or progressing past his obsessions. Bruce Wayne is the mask and Batman is the real wank-wank-drizzle. He really will become the creepy old man with the incessant simmering anger and a dog living in a cave and still luring in stray young men with his money and gadgets to do his bidding after hours. He’ll never progress further– a stunted, flaccid, bitter old bat-queen offering no better solutions for society’s woes than fists to the face and the odd charity gala. He’s somewhere on the spectrum between Bill Gates and Steve Jobs, and if either is your hero or welcome company, reconsider your priorities and values.
Ah yes, the problem with a single character with multiple zero issues. Glad this won’t happen again!
I agreed with you (S&B) on your findings. I guess the overall month of Batman bat-titles gets a C.
I always liked the idea of the Wayne murderer being the one case Batman couldn’t solve. It gives him a drive and purpose. Of course, I think he’s nuts, so maybe that plays into it for me. I think if he found out, saw that Chill served his time, or died or whatever, it would give some closure to Wayne and there’d be no Batman. Again, I know it’s boring for the comics, but at some point, the character kind of breaks when taken too seriously.
Looking forward to next week! The Flash and Wonder Woman were the two big ongoings for me when I was reading these. I think you’re in for a real treat.
Of course the gem waiting for you isn’t Starman. It isn’t even Primal Force. It’s Xenobrood!
Woo, these issues were less than dazzling, Hopefully something better is round the corner, something like… um, Conduit.
Thank God for Starman and Demon, though that one may not work out of it’s series context.
Chris is right on Joe Chill, the Detective issue, and Chuck Dixon. Frank is right on Doug Moench and how much fun it was when Siskoid let Bass twist in the wind. Moench was often flowery, , as Chris said, but his stories all had heart, and sometimes they would even sing. I mean, sometimes he used Batman to make points that transcended Batman. Man, now I want to read some old Batman — and look up what Doug Moench is doing. For some of us, the phase never ends.
Bass, I was afraid I wasn’t being fair by sticking you with that question. But your response was both honest and vastly entertaining, so now I regret nothing. I won’t ruin it by making it a longer discussion. Thank you!
Oh you have no idea how much I´m enjoing this podcast. Zero Hour is the best book ever and you are great!
I´ve just finished Ep. 2 but quickly catching Up!
Let me know when you get to the parts where we’re not so positive, just to see if you still like us!
I’ve been listening to many podcasts lately about “post-Crisis” Batman. Nothing I’ve heard about these stories has made me regret my my decision to stop buying Batman and Detective in the late 1980s. I don’t think there have been any changes in the character’s backstory that I like. 1. Joe Chill; Finger wrote a damn great story, based off the original two-page origin. It works so well, right down to the O. Henry climactic twist. I think many fans, and creators, misinterpret Bruce Wayne’s vow. He doesn’t seek revenge on just the killer of his parents, he vows to war against crime. That Bruce, as Batman, happens to uncover evidence about that very personal crime, is merely a part of that long war, albeit much more meaningful. I think that the fetishization of the murder, the murder weapon, and the murderer by subsequent writers has been detrimental.
2. Alfred. Having Alfred in Bruce’s life from before the “tragic day” is too simplistic. It also makes it too easy for Bruce. He loses his mother and father, but he still has his father-figure. Alfred-from-the-beginning smooths the way for Bruce to grow up mostly care-free. Food, shelter, fortune, etc. all neatly handled by Alfred as Bruce commutes between the gym and the library. That’s why I love the character of Uncle Phillip, despite the fact that I’ve never actually read any stories with him. If Phillip is Bruce’s great-uncle, not his father’s brother, he is family (the estate and the inheritance is safe), yet he is almost a stranger. In my head canon, Phillip is a bachelor and unused to children, yet he teaches Bruce invaluable lessons. Lessons about philanthropy, lessons about running a business, and especially, lessons about how to behave in society. By that, I mean, how to wear a “mask.” “Dressing the part” in public, displaying disdain in private. Maybe Phillip does secret missionary work in disguise. Bruce Wayne needs to learn about how to move through all strata of society, something an Alfred couldn’t do. 3. Robin. As much as I admire Denny O’Neil’s career, and many of his stories, I do not like his tenure as Bat-editor, despite his tremendous success. Batman, as a character, was one of the very few DC characters to escape the “Crisis” unharmed. The JSA, the Legion, Hawkman, et al were fundamentally, and thoughtlessly altered. Not Batman, and not Nightwing, and that’s the problem. DC, I expect, wanted to keep the Teen Titans as they were, which means keeping the IP Nightwing. Nightwing used to be Robin, and he was Robin for, say, ten years with Batman. So if there is a Nightwing, then there has been a Batman swinging around Gotham for eleven to twelve years already. Superman just showed up in Metropolis a few years ago. Wonder Woman arrived in Man’s World about six weeks ago, but Batman has been around for (at least) two Presidents already. But Robin is a more valuable and recognizable IP, so they give him a new Robin, and Denny gives none of his writers any guidance at all. Resulting in a character whose backstory is constantly being changed and who is written as insufferable. Once the character is made disposable, everybody wants one to dispose of. From my point of view, as an outside-the-current-fandom observer, Nightwing has been around a few years, Batman has been around about a decade-and-a-half, and nevertheless there has been a parade of Robins and various other Bat-partners and Bat-wannabes and Bat-surrogates through the cave at the rate of about one per quarter! Zero Hour should’ve done what Crisis failed to do: start over. Dick Grayson is young Teen Robin. NIghtwing is somebody else who becomes influential to Dick.
Finally, Green Arrow is smart. He builds all his own arrows. He can design them. He can integrate electronics. He can adapt them to deliver blunt force, concussive force, liquids, or gas. He knows chemistry for his smoke arrows, knock-out arrows, CO2 arrows. He quiver is a model of efficiency and form. But I don’t think he’s much of a lateral thinker. He’s a good detective when he’s pursuing clues in a straightforward fashion, the way he builds his arrows, but may miss something helpful or serendipitous because he’s not focused on it. He’s not perceived that way because his mouth is faster than his brain.
Thank you for coming to my Frank talk.