JSA in the 90s – Spotlight on Hippolyta as the JSA’s Wonder Woman

It’s a Spotlight episode of JSA in the 90s covering HIPPOLYTA as the JSA’s WONDER WOMAN! John Steib and The Irredeemable Shag discuss the retcon that placed Hippolyta (Polly) into the 1940s to become the Golden Age Wonder Woman – with special focus on WONDER WOMAN #130-133 (1998) by John Byrne! Finally, we wrap up with YOUR listener feedback!

 

 

 

 

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26 responses to “JSA in the 90s – Spotlight on Hippolyta as the JSA’s Wonder Woman”

  1. Hi guys! Loved the episode because I’m in the team who loved the retcon at the time (and pretty much still). The detail that has been missing and that explains away some of your nitpicks is that previous to Diana dying there was an ongoing subplot with a mystery woman called Polly living a regular life in current times as someone working at a restaurant, with friends and a rich life. That is, after the whole Artemis affaire in the previous run, Hippolyta, as penance, had been living in manś world. That’s how she got the Polly name and the penchant for short skirts.
    I like that you mentioned that Polly is indeed less powerful than Diana, and that also explains the need for the sword and shield.

    Finally, as much as I love this retcon, as mentioned, my personal headache/peeve is that it lessens the impact of Diana arriving on manś world the first time. The awe of the public at her is lesseded if it’s “oh, just like the WW2 Wonder Woman”. Other than that, all in.

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    1. Gus repeats a potential criticism that Shag and John alluded to in their own discussion: that making Hippolyta the WW2 Wonder Woman “lessens the impact of Diana arriving on man’s world the first time. The awe of the public at her is lessened if it’s “oh, just like the WW2 Wonder Woman”.”

      I hear that, but I don’t worry about it too much. Especially once we accept the “I didn’t remember Polly until just now, but now I remember everything” way that time travel seems to have worked in this story. The public was in awe of Diana when she first came on the scenes post-Crisis because, at that time, Polly hadn’t yet traveled to the past. It might possibly be the case *now* that folks might scratch their heads and say, “why were we so impressed with Wonder Woman in the late-80s?”, but really, who’s likely to be telling that story, anyway?

      This way is MUCH cleaner of a retcon, retaining a greater deal of the past history than, say, replacing Wonder Woman with Black Canary or Fury. If a retcon cannot be avoided, anyway, I say go for the cleanest one!

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  2. 3 thoughts
    1) I loved the Poly retcon
    2) Donna Troy is by far my favorite underused character in the DCU
    3) you mentioned Sensation comics 1. The only line i remember from that is Speed saying “most men would give a years pay to breathe her cigarette smoke.” (I think, I haven’t read it since it was new.) On that note, someone tell the editors that having a last name in common with someone doesn’t necessarily make you related. Speed Saunders/Shiera Saunders, Ted Knight/Sandra Knight, and Grant (Damage) Emerson/Neil Emerson (Dr Polaris).

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    1. Brett: “someone tell the editors that having a last name in common with someone doesn’t necessarily make you related. Speed Saunders/Shiera Saunders, Ted Knight/Sandra Knight, and Grant (Damage) Emerson/Neil Emerson (Dr Polaris).”

      True story: This is a conversation I’ve been having (and frequently losing!) with my father-in-law for over 20 years. His surname is “Baker” and my surname (before getting married and hyphenating) was “Wright.” Both *extremely* common, right? My father-in-law is a fan of genealogies and history, and ALWAYS looks to find the connection when he sees two people with the surname in common. As often as not, he finds one!

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  3. John is a teacher, a comic fan, a great podcast guest, AND brings in the Perez Wonder Woman trade as a recommendation?! Awesome!

    I am really really thinking of doing some sort of teachers and comics show!

    Great episode! While Byrne’s run is understandably divisive due to his crazy and needless Wonder Girl (Donna Troy) retcon, it is overall a strong run with great moments, Polly being chief amongst them. She is a great character and this adds a great layer to her narrative. It also gives Diana and Dinah Lance more in common, as both of their moms served in the JSA.

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  4. I’d like to say thank you to anyone who listened to this episode of JSA Presents. I started listening to the Fire & Water Network many years ago and never thought I’d one day get to be on it. I’ve mentioned that I like to listen to episodes of various shows while cutting the grass in the summertime and shoveling / snow blowing in the winter. In a bit of ironic coincidence, Wisconsin got hit by a blizzard last night and I ended up listening to MYSELF on this episode while clearing the sidewalks and driveway. (Insert eyeroll emoji here.) I want to make one correction about something I said. John Byrne was, indeed, in my opinion, trying to add to Wonder Woman’s rogue’s gallery during his tenure on the book. But, the Clayface thing I mentioned was written by Brian K. Vaughn and happened much later in Diana’s run (issue #160 with an amazing Adam Hughes cover.) My apologies for that one, friends.

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  5. Congratulations to John on his podcast debut, well, airing wise at least. He made so great points, I look forward to hearing him on Sean’s show.

    I enjoyed the four-issue focus on Hippolyta and the JSA; for one thing, it meant we didn’t have to look at the abomination that was John Byrne’s interpretation of Diana in costume. The laziness of the two-giant-star panties, the ugly belt that rises to cover most of her chest, the Starfire-stupid hair… happily, he drew Hippolyta a lot nicer.

    I like the retcon, for all the reasons given. I hate the ‘Polly’ business, it infantilises the old queen.

    Speaking of which, the Hawkman/Green Lantern costume swapping bit was clever. Now we know all Alan Scott’s secrets, we can guess that he really enjoyed going around bare chested in a harness…

    There was a bit too much going on in these issues – the JSA plot, the Greek Olympians planning a fusion with their Roman counterparts, the Donna business and the back-up with the Demon. The latter two story strands should’ve been held over.

    Dark Angel is pants. Plain Paula Von Gunther was far more interesting. The idea of thousands of tragic lives for Donna driving Hippolyta insane, how the heck would that work? The whole thing is ridiculously convoluted, even for a Donna origin.

    Incidentally, Dark Angel did later appear in Supergirl and Countdown to Adventure.

    Wonder Woman with a sword is something I hate. Why would Hippolyta go to Man’s World with a massive great blade? She’s meant to be representing Diana, who went into US society with an open heart and open hand, not one wielding a threatening weapon. Wonder Woman was created with the lasso and bracelets for defence, not a sword for attack.

    Was Hippolyta still the JSA secretary in the revised continuity? The pen is surely mightier than the sword.

    That Clayface story was entertaining, but as Diana points out to Clayface, she’s not clay, she became flesh at birth… and then he pulls clay out of her. Eh?

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  6. While listening to the feedback, I kept thinking that I had left some for Justice Society of America #2, or even reskeeted on social media, but I guess not? Did a comment get ate, or did I just not care about this mini-series that much? Probably that last one, since I don’t think I’ve ever looked past the cover to that issue, and I definitely don’t care about the color of Black Canary’s belt. I tend to only get hung up on that level of minutia with prized characters like Wonder Woman– and there it is. But hey, you’re the one who interrupted mini-series coverage for a Hippolyta spotlight, so I doubt your commitment, as well.

    While working on the Golden Age Black Canary for Mark Baker-Wright’s episode of DC Secret Files, I noticed Dinah Drake’s lack of JSA association once she switched teams. Obviously, All-Star Squadron was set before she became a heroine, and she was otherwise occupied during the ’70s All-Star Comics revival. Thanks to the Earth-3 Johnny Thunder body-swap business (oh, there’s a reason to hate Johnny,) we were also robbed of seeing Dinah Lance grow up alongside Infinity Incorporated. But then the Crisis happened, so that could have been better handled– except Dinah was now seemingly intentionally segregated from other JSAer’s kids and co-founded the JLA in Wonder Woman’s place. We’ve basically had a half-century campaign of Golden Age Black Canary erasure that essentially rendered her a footnote to emphasize her daughter’s modern age role.

    On the topic of a new All-Star Squadron series, didn’t they already do that with JSA All-Stars, or was that more of a nü-Super Squad? I do like the idea of differentiating them from the World War-era JSA by using characters from other imprints/publishers, like Plastic Man. Honestly though, the wartime years have been so thoroughly canvassed, I’d be much more interested in McCarthy era or Camelot super-types. As Dave Tomko mentioned, I mourn for DC’s unwillingness to plug the holes in DC post-WWII history with properties they acquired after COIE, like the extended Fawcett line. In the most recent episode of DC Secret Files with Billy Hynes, I talk about how the misbegotten early 1960s Wildstorm’s group Team One could have filled such a role, with Mr. Majestic keeping the seat warm for Superman and Captain Marvel.

    Okay, before I even start in on the episode topic, a brief breakdown of ’90s John Byrne. Coming off the modest reception to Avengers West Coast and the chilly one to Namor, Byrne knew that he wasn’t the golden boy anymore. In his early forties, comparing himself to Jack Kirby at the start of the Marvel Universe, Next Men was supposed to change that narrative. Although he was still pulling monthly double-duty on Sensational She-Hulk, he was clearly putting more effort into over-rendering in the modern style a book pointedly recalling his X-Men glory days (which had inspired his young image-conscious competitors.) He knew 8 million copies was unattainable, or even 1 million out of Dark Horse, but a quarter million would have still made him king of the indies at the time. Except the early issues only sold 38K through Capitol City, so even if Diamond had 2/3rds of the comic market at the time (as I’ve heard,) we’re still talking in the neighborhood of 115K total, direct market only, and fading with time. Further, his services at Marvel were increasingly unwanted, and his multiple attempts to launch projects at Dark Horse saw diminishing returns. Mid-decade, DC had caught lighting in a bottle with Mike Deodato Jr. on Wonder Woman, but they couldn’t keep him or his Glass House Studio ghosts/associates when other suitors came calling. On a DC budget, succeeding him with John Byrne was a “get,” even if the Deodato audience had no interest in the old man. Byrne would at least hold on to the mainstream DC collectors that had finally started picking the book up again. Meanwhile, Byrne could see himself like the industry had Perez in the ’80s, nobly white-hatting for the grand dame of super-heroines, despite absorbing the hit he would take while not doing a high profile team book or some such. But then again, we were in the Extreme Justice era, where the bestselling of the three titles was barely in the top 100, so Byrne may have faced heavier lifting there. The last Deodato WW was in the top 40, and the first Byrne issue the top 20.

    Byrne had initially drawn his Wonder Woman run in an Image fashion, with a particularly noticeable not to Todd McFarlane. It was also heavily promoted, with a full-sized retail poster and a die-cut counter dump, both of which I still have from my comic shop days. I deployed both, which helped launch the run, and I particularly saw a lot of the triangle-number Superman guys take it up. Those were the types who kept with it, in my experience, while the curious quickly faded, as did Byrne’s excessive embellishments. Byrne cycled through his usual Kirby toys and marketable guest appearances before settling into a Silver Age pastiche. Whatever my grievances with the Byrne run, and there are many, he had clearly read the Robert Kanigher stories of the ’50s & ’60s, not just her Justice League appearances (like most damned writers.) Byrne also decided to prove his detractors (particularly Erik Larsen) wrong by settling into a nice(?) long(!!!) three year run. His art was in journeyman mode by then, saving himself for his last obvious effort on Spider-Man: Chapter One before leaving it entirely to embellishers to put in the work of making his salable.

    So, no, I wasn’t wild for the book by the time he assigned Hippolyta the lead role, just as I never warmed to her time-travel shenanigans making her the chronological first Wonder Woman. I think we all agree that there should be a WWIIWW,to serve in the JSA and this has remained the more palatable means of executing that concept. I have no desire to ever revisit the Byrne, which in memory has been made only slightly less painful when compared to the even worse Erik Luke period (and I couldn’t force myself to actually read most of the Jimenez run, just look at the pretty pictures.) I bought all of these comics, including the extra-length anthologies, so this episode was kind of a ‘Nam flashback for me. I think I liked the Winslade story from Adventure Comics 80-Page Giant, and I’ve always loved the rare Steve Lightle Wonder Woman sighting, as on the cover.

    Wonder Woman drew a blade on special occasions, particularly in the Silver and Bronze Ages, but it was Hippolyta that made it a routine thing. I mean, after they killed her off in Our World at War, and then rebooted continuity in the New 52. Wonder Woman stealing an attribute from subordinate characters and fridging therm has always been her way, In the second ever Wonder Woman story, Princess Diana bribes a lookalike nurse named Diana Prince so that she could assume her identity while packing Nurse Prince off to South America, rarely to be heard from again (decades later.) Steve Trevor was an agent of military intelligence, so Diana Prince became one too, and then they killed Steve off. The Fury dumped most of her continuity and close ties to the Golden Age/Steve Trevor after COIE, and then Diana did the same, plus both had their mothers retconned into the World War II versions of their heroic identities. Donna Troy could fly under her own power and was more prone to feats of strength, until Wonder Woman assumed those attributes and obliterated Donna’s origin, first divorcing her from Amazon history, then making her Diana’s magical mirror-clone. Both Artemis and Wonder Woman were Mike Deodato Jr. bad girls who were killed by a demonic entity, then were trapped in Hell until escaping and reanimating. Cassie Sandsmark was a secret demigoddess fathered by Zeus, until Diana was the same. The Fury, Donna Troy, and now Wonder Woman all had insta-adult babies who joined them in cosmic conflicts that threatened history/reality. If you’re in the Wonder Woman “family,” and you have something Diana wants, update your will.

    Speaking of retcons, here’s an Elseworlds for you: what if, instead of pretending the Wonder Girl who joined the Teen Titans was a new character, they stuck with the continuity that she was a teenaged time-traveling Diana? The whole reason for the confusion was that Wonder Tot, Wonder Girl, and Wonder Woman occasionally formed a team out of temporally displaced versions of Diana. What if Diana just co-existed with her adult self across two teams? In fact, much of the overlap time was when Diana Prince was a depowered globetrotter, so what if teen Diana was standing in for herself in that period? But for how long? Until the New Teen Titans? So no Terry Long, or maybe teen Diana lasts until Crisis? That way, she could conceive Lyta Long, go back in time to raise her on Paradise Island, and then team-up with her adult daughter in the ’80s? Hell, single mother Diana Prince could have been what kept Steve Trevor at bay in World War Two, and then Diana time-jumps to her modern age revival while tween Lyta spends her awkward teen years training with the Amazons? Or hey, retcon Donna entirely and have Lyta be the ’60s Wonder Girl.

    Does all that sound terrible? Now you know what you sound like to me when you nod approvingly at all this “Polly” baloney. For instance, Toga Hippolyta spending centuries in a low key but committed lesbian relationship with General Philippus, and then jumping on Wildcat’s jock as soon as she bounces back into the timestream. “I’m mourning my daughter’s quasi-death and ascendance into goddesshood alongside noted sexual assailant Zeus, but it’s nothing a little vitamin D can’t cure.” Oh hey, this whole “Wonder Woman” thing was a solemn role earned through a tournament pitting all the Amazons against each other as a core tenant of the franchise? Or Queen Mother can just deem it a reverse-hereditary role and assume it herself, with no other bids taken? And yeah, not only was Hippolyta much less powerful, but if I recall correctly, she relied on the same magical enhancement items that Artemis used when she was Wonder Woman (which Hippolyta had engineered so that Artemis would die in Diana’s place. So homicidal conceptual larceny is a family tradition.)

    To expand on John Steib’s comment, if nothing else, I think Eric Luke bettered Byrne on the front of building out the rogues gallery. His revised Dr. Poison (with Matthew Clark, I think) has stuck around, and even Devastation gets the occasional use. But then again, Byrne brought back Giganta, though the current version owes more to Gail Simone’s work with her on the Ryan Choi Atom book. Likewise, Paula Von Gunther has been revisited and revised many times beyond Dark Angel, though all that chaps my hide, because it reverses her decades-spanning reformation as the Amazon’s chief scientist, lasting from the Golden through Bronze Ages.

    I’m with Martin in loathing the sword. It’s vulgar for William Moulton-Marston’s pacifistic, lasso-wielding, (benevolent) female supremacist to wag a phallic tool at her modern foes. She might as well be clubbing villains with a dildo.

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  7. Thank goodness for this episode, because whenever the retcon is brought up online, all I ever see is negativity from people. Some are angry because they don’t want Polly to be the first Wonder Woman while others think its a spit in the face to Earth-Two (don’t ask me how that works). I’ve always liked the retcon because it does what Post-Crisis retcons do best: find a creative way to introduce an old idea in a new way while working within the restrictions of the new continuity. It’s funny how the Ultimate universe did this all the time and got praised for it while DC did stuff like that first and got hate for it. I guess it sucks to be the person to go first as you’ll take all the hits. I love that the team calls her “Polly” from these issues to her time in the JSA in the 2000’s. Can’t wait for you to get to that series!

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  8. Here’s an idea for story : I don’t know if would be an else world or a mini series but what if dc a story with jsa acting as protectors at one of the later world fairs. And during this time this what make an else world wild cat and poly spending time with daughter Diana . Yes in this time line Dania was still made from clay but with the love of ploy and wild cat witch would make Dania see any one else who later takes on the mantle of wild cat as a sibling .
    It would be a different take on her just a idea what do think is a else world one shot or mini series you read Dania and wild cats as she would in up teaming up with other two wild cats as well .
    The first story would be called “it happened at worlds fair as the statue of I make is at a worlds fair art station and a certain goddess of love shows up turning the statue in to Child in a black cat onesie . (You could say it was Amazon pavilion)

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  9. Outside of the Perez-era series, my reading of WW solo titles has been limited. I don’t mind the Hippolyta retcon at all. Out of the DC trinity, WW fits into that WW2 setting the best and it would be a shame to lose a female member of the JSA when they only had so few.

    I was reminded of a JSA-related WW retcon that I did not like. When WW was devolved into clay and the Earth 2 history was wiped out at the end of Crisis, that meant that Fury from Infinity Inc. was no longer Lyta Trevor, daughter of Diana and Steve Trevor, but the daughter of a brand new character, yet another Fury, who fought with the All-Star Squadron in the 1940s. So much of the appeal of Infinity Inc. for me was the “children of the JSA” hook and Fury was less interesting to me as a result.

    Great show as always, Shag! And well done, John Steib. From commenter to guest, you are living the dream.

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    1. Also, every time you mention Dark Angel, I think of the Jessica Alba TV series on Fox from the early 2000s. Maybe, someone at the network was a fan.

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  10. I really disliked Byrne’s Wonder Woman run. “Let’s make a convoluted retcon to shove Hippolyta in as a Golden Age Wonder Woman” when Roy Thomas had already plugged in Miss America as the JSA’s secretary (and yes, I know, “it’s a Wonder Woman analog”). Like the whole Pocket Universe Superboy story, Byrne’s retcon is a very limited substitution (in the “Supergirl Saga,” for example, Byrne decided that the Time Trapper removed all worlds but Krypton and Earth), Hippolyta doesn’t fill in all the blanks–no Diana Prince, no Steve Trevor, no Etta Candy, etc. Just like introducing the Sandsmarks when the Kapatelis family was still around (Vanessa didn’t become Silver Swan until the Jimenez era). To me, this was just typical Byrne “Let’s bulldoze over what came before and make things fit the way I want to,” a practice that irks me to no end, no matter who does it (I’m looking at you, Geoff Johns), because it leaves the continuity landscape littered with detritus and collateral damage.

    It was also kinda dumb to me that DC had already introduced Hypertime, but Byrne had to come up with some other “history didn’t change until Jippolyta came back to the present” explanation. At the time, I even suggested (in the rec.artc.comics.dc Usenet newsgroup) that it would’ve worked just as well to use the “Hypertime is a river that can branch and merge” principle already established in “The Kingdom.”

    (And don’t get me started on Donna. At this point, Donna’s origin had only changed in that she was taken in by the Titans of Myth–no “magical clone” or Dark Angel BS until Byrne came along. It was like Byrne felt the burning need to pull a Grant Morrison “It all happened!” take on Wonder Girl/Troia.)

    That said, I think you covered the story really well, Shag and John. Kudos!

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  11. I noticed several commenters mentioned the “clever” use of heroes swapping costumes and identities. Bit that was already an old trope by then. The book that brought me full fledged into the DC fold: JLA 12, the story that introduced the Silver Age Dr. Light., had Superman and Batman switch idenities. Its been done at least a couple of times since.

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    1. Great episode. Count me as someone who loves this recon. Loved the original issues were Polly goes back in time with the JSA as the JSA is my favorite DC team.

      I wish there were more JSA members as I would have loved seeing his versions of Hourman, Dr Midnight, Sandman, and Starman.

      The JB WW omnibus is fantastic, and there is a surprisingly generous and humble intro by Byrne written in 2024, where he speaks fondly of George Perez. And dedicates the book to Perez. Humble and Byrne are not usually listed in the same sentence, but it seem genuine. It is hard to be humble when you are John Freaking Byrne.

      JSA fan since Justice League of America # 171

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  12. I loved the retcon! I read the Speed Force issue before and i started collecting Wonder Woman when Polly replaced Diana. I always found the way old Jay reacted to Hawkman a little funny ( i know the guy fought nazi airplanes shirtless with a mace but i don’t think that’s enough agaisn’t experiend Jay and Polly). You guys did an excellent job and you said it all i don’t have anything to add except: i love John Byrne as well!!!

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  13. I collected Byrne’s first year on Wonder Woman, and dropped it around then, probably from finances or changing comic shops, showing it wasn’t grabbing me. But it is on my list of series to give a read with the DCUI app. But this episode gave me an excuse to at least check out these issues, which are the main reason for doing so. First impression is Byrne is full-on Byrne-ing. All of his writing tics are in full force, not enough to be a turnoff, but enough to trip me up sometimes. Like the heavy-explaining panels, overly complex subplots, and weird dialog choices like Jay saying “she likes to be called Polly”, instead of letting her say it for herself.

    Maybe someone else commented on it, but now that I’ve read these and seen “Themiscyra exists anywhere in time”, boy that jumps out as a dangerous “get out of jail free” plot element that could have been seriously abused by future writers. And there’s really no limitation on doing it except for the Amazons saying they really, really shouldn’t do it. But ok, just this once. And just this once. And maybe this time. And maybe now because breakfast wasn’t really good so let’s do it over. I have to think that hasn’t been the case, but it’s not a good precedent. Like “we’ll have a shapechanger take person X’s place” has become. (See Clayface and Skrulls.)

    Was it fun to see Byrne draw the original JSA? Heck, yeah! Do I like Polly as a JSA member? Again, heck, yeah! I haven’t read much of those stories, but that story with Liberty Belle, Phantom Lady, and Red Tornado is glorious and lives rent-free in my head! The concept has plenty of potential and could be mined for more, like in the current JSA Year One arc, so I’m all for it. But I do wonder if continuity has been tweaked so that it’s the 1940s contemporary Hippolyta that’s in the JSA, rather than involving time travel. I’d have to reopen the New History of the DCU, and that sounds like work.

    So I call this a net positive for me, and I now need to find time to read the rest of Byrne’s run to see the journey to these issues. Sure, I’ll just find time. Sigh. Thanks for the great discussion!

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    1. Oh shoot, I forgot one point and I don’t see where anybody else addressed this yet. (How could that have happened?) In Pre-Crisis, men could not step on Paradise Island or the Amazons would lose their powers. With the Perez relaunch, that restriction is gone. Sean covered an important moment where Hercules can stand on the island, and nobody freaks out or questions it. I don’t know of that limitation being reinstated after Perez left the book, so I think it’s safe to say that was solely a Pre-Crisis rule.

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  14. Great episode, and John was fantastic guest on this, his first podcast…or is it? This is like the conundrum of whether or not Wesley Dodds/Sandman debuted in Adventure Comics or New York World’s Fair Comics!

    I liked this Byrne run on Wonder Woman, and I liked the Polly retcon! Yeah, it’s timey-wimey that she became Wonder Woman AFTER Diana, but technically proceeded her too. But it’s comics. I did like what Byrne did with Donna Troy. It was a nice nod to the strange creation of Donna from a misunderstanding of the strange “Impossible” Wonder-Family team-ups between adult/teen/baby Diana and Hippolyta. I seem to recall Dark Angel resurfaced in The Titans later, continuing to torment Donna.

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  15. Impressive podcast most impressive. I liked these comics when they came out. Not so much on some of the stuff Bryne has said about me and mine. But, what eves he had his JK Rollins moment. Anyway, these are cool stories with good art. And the red Tornado story is cute.

    I was glad they redeemed Hippy after the WW 90s run. Her being the WW 2 Wonder Woman was cool. And keeps that history with out upsetting the Perez run. Glad I meet Perez at that one contention before he passed. Anyway, these stories are fine.

    And seeing Hippy date Ted was fun. How did he become the heart Throb? Ah well another of Bill Fingers co creations getting a spotlight is cool. Moving on Jay and Hippy teaming up was cool.

    Anyway can’t wait for the next podcast.

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  16. I am writing this before I read Frank’s comment. I do not believe that I have ever enjoyed a story written by John Byrne. I admit my prejudice. Nevertheless, these four issues of Wonder Woman are bad comics. Overall, it is too much backstory exposition and very little action. In the non-JSA subplots, there are major characters who are ill-defined. This reader did not know who the Landsmark people were or why they were in this book. As to the art, I was well over Byrne’s wide-mouthed, stiff-armed heroes long ago. That all of the women were so skeletal made it worse. Paradise Island is the Rock of Eternity? The invisible plane needs to be re-formed to “Fit in?” The INVISIBLE plane??? You keep saying this word, but I don’t think you know what it means.
    Oh, the retcons. Why, in the late 1990s, were DC writers STILL trying to patch things over? DC History should have been treated as if there were never any parallel worlds, and DC history got changed from the previously published versions. But we get things like this mess. Retcons like Flash being an active member of the JSA in July 1942. And Green Lantern. They were off the roster by then. In fact, the JSA was essentially disbanded. They were the Justice Battalion.
    Hyppolyta is not Diana. They are two different personalities. This touches on one of my main beefs with DC comics; character NAMES are re-used, but the characters themselves are vastly different. Hyppolyta is not Diana, Helena Wayne is not Helena Bertinelli, Greg Saunders is not Adrian Chase, etc.
    Why do/did post-Crisis creators feel compelled to stick Wonder Woman in the JSA? If they think that war-time Justice Society needed a secretary, Wonder Woman’s role, Hawkgirl is right there! There is little in the original stories that Wonder Woman did that Hawkgirl couldn’t.
    As many commenters brought up, if Wonder Woman was active in the 1940’s, what was the impetus to send Diana to “man’s world?” As I’ve been listening to the excellent Peace Bound and Down podcast for many months, this retcon made me think about the motivation for Diana. By the time this book was published, it was probably time for an origin update anyhow, as the Potter-Perez book was very much a US vs. USSR origin. By 1998 that was gone. Was Diana’s origin ever updated. Or did she just become her own legacy hero?
    Now I’ll read what Frank had to say.

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  17. Greatly enjoyed this episode. I have always liked this retcon as it allowed for the golden age Wonder Woman stories, but without being a regressive return to Wonder Woman’s past ala Geoff Johns approach to Superman’s Secret Origin. haven’t read any of the Byrne Wonder Woman run, but my first exposure to Hippolyta as Wonder Woman was in the Our Worlds at War event. I read that phonebook sized paperback omnibus (the popular term is compendium these days) without much, if any real understanding of Superman or DC comics at that point of time. Talking about jumping into the deep end. I survived! Though it speaks to why I tend to chase out these convoluted events. In the story itself, Poly’s death was definitely a heroic moment but in the sea of character deaths (real and fake outs) it kind of got lost in the noise.

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  18. Great episode, guys! I really enjoyed it, honestly more than these four issues of Byrne’s Wonder Woman, which I found to be a bit of a mixed bag. That said, it gives us a mixed bag retcon that I ultimately come down in favor of.

    As mentioned in the episode and comments, the story is a little all over the place, juggling multiple plotlines, one of which even starts in a Flash Special. Still, I love seeing the classic JSA, especially Hippolyta, drawn by Byrne, and I really like how he tweaked Diana’s look during his run. And while I appreciate that Byrne seems pretty upfront in his writing that this story exists for the sole purpose to retcon Hippolyta as the World War II Wonder Woman, I do wish he had condensed it into a single issue and left out the Artemis, Demon, and Olympus subplots.

    Once it is all said and done, though, the retcon serves JSA-centric stories very well. The initial “oh, now I remember” effect for the characters is fun, but that only works once. After that, you are left with a change that somewhat undercuts the impact of Diana’s arrival in Man’s World. It is similar to reinstating public knowledge of Superboy before Superman. Many of the big reveals happen earlier, which lessens the impact of Superman’s debut. For both Superboy and Hippolyta, I tend to think of their histories as more like urban legends, things the public does not fully know or believe, which helps preserve the significance of Superman and Diana’s origins.

    No retcon is perfect, but this might be the cleanest and simplest way to reintroduce a WWII Wonder Woman post-Crisis.

    And yes, New History of the DC Universe and JSA: Year One both confirm that Polly is back as Wonder Woman in World War II. If I remember correctly, this was undone at some point during Dan DiDio’s tenure, and then there were seeds planted for Diana to be the WWII Wonder Woman as part of the planned 5G event. Either way, I am glad Polly is back in that role. I am curious whether her presence is due to time travel or something else entirely.

    She definitely meets the JSA differently than in Byrne’s version, but it still includes her tossing around Al Pratt. When I reread that moment in Byrne’s issues, it made me wonder if Jeff Lemire was giving a subtle wink and nod to Bryne’s book with his Polly and Pratt dynamic (which has been great).

    And yes, Shag, I really like Bloodwynd. If Mark Waid can have a fondness for goofy Silver Age characters like Crazy Quilt, Rainbow Raider, and Polka-Dot Man, I’m going to have a soft spot for goofy ’90s characters like Loose Cannon, Bloodwynd, and Triumph (to name a few).

    To bring it back to New History of the DC Universe, that is actually where I think Waid fell a little short. Issue #3, covering the ’90s, was good, but it lacked the passion and invention of issues #1 and #2, which tackled the Golden, Silver, and Bronze Ages. By that point, Waid was recapping the work of his contemporaries rather than writing from a fan-first perspective. Honestly, if issue #3 had been written by someone who grew up loving ’90s DC, someone like Steve Orlando or Joshua Williamson, it might have read more like a true love letter to that era.

    And Shag, I will stand by what I said. Michael Netzer’s cover for Armageddon Inferno #4 is great, even if the interior leaves a lot to be desired, outside of the JSA’s return. I guess it has that in common with these Wonder Woman issues. I do not completely love the story, but I am glad it exists.

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  19. I think Hippy was closer to the Gal Gadot version of Wonder Woman than Perez or Lynda Carter. still the main draw here is Byrne drawing the JSA. However this version of Dark Angel is not as good as the Jessica Alba version

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